1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520
we witnessed something in the sky that\h
I can only describe as a very bright\h\h

2
00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:09,480
light if it was at thirty thousand\h
feet the speeds which it shut off\h\h

3
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,380
must have been around Mach 30\h
or 40. it was just incredible

4
00:00:19,980 --> 00:00:25,260
welcome to merge I'm Ryan Graves today\h
we're joined by Christian van Heist\h\h

5
00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,600
Christian is a Dutch airline pilot\h
who's been flying since the age of 14.\h\h

6
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,620
he started his career flying turbo\h
props in Africa and Afghanistan\h\h

7
00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:41,580
then flew the Boeing 737 for four years and has\h
been flying the Boeing 747 for the last 12 years\h\h

8
00:00:42,540 --> 00:00:49,260
he's logged over 9 500 flight hours is now\h
capping on the 747. parallel to his flying\h\h

9
00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:54,540
career Christian is an award-winning photographer\h
specializing in photography from the flight deck\h\h

10
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,880
Christian has caught a number of unidentified\h
objects during his career he's carefully\h\h

11
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:05,220
locked each occurrence and has often been able to\h
eventually explain what he see on other occasions\h\h

12
00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:14,640
he has not I hope you enjoy this episode the merge\h
podcast and now Christian van Heist Christian uh\h\h

13
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:20,100
welcome uh thanks for coming here today and uh\h
where did you come in from today oh first of all\h\h

14
00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:25,560
thanks for having uh thanks for having me I just\h
flew in from the Netherlands from Amsterdam so\h\h

15
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,720
um yeah I'm really happy that I can be part of\h
this podcast watch a short notice yeah well we\h\h

16
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:36,120
certainly appreciate you being here so you're\h
a pilot and how long have you been flying yeah\h\h

17
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:43,200
I'm now 39 years old I've been flying since I was\h
14. I started Larder flying it was uh started as\h\h

18
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,240
a as a big interest in aviation and as soon as I\h
could I started flying gliders soon afterwards I\h\h

19
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:54,300
started flying for my PPO which is the private\h
pilot license and uh fortunately I was able to\h\h

20
00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:59,340
get my first private bottom class and just before\h
I got my driver's license so it was definitely a\h\h

21
00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:05,220
big passion for me um sorry you were flying before\h
you even drove a car yeah I I even had to take a\h\h

22
00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:10,500
train and it's actually to the airport to get\h
my flying lessons so yeah that's that's how it\h\h

23
00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:15,600
started After High School I decided to study\h
Aeronautical Engineering at the Polytechnic\h\h

24
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:21,360
I finished my bachelor but even though it was\h
very interesting my heart was actually in the\h\h

25
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:27,300
in the cockpits so I decided to basically quit\h
Aeronautical Engineering study after my bachelor\h\h

26
00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:32,400
and I proceeded to continue with the professional\h
flight training which I finished when I was 20\h\h

27
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,420
years old so you didn't you didn't say quit the\h
degree you just didn't continue to pursue that\h\h

28
00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:41,460
career necessarily in more engineering focus is\h
that accurate exactly exactly because basically\h\h

29
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:48,420
um I was told by a lot of people that it was a\h
wise thing to do to get my engineering degree but\h\h

30
00:02:48,420 --> 00:02:54,840
I really felt especially after uh two years after\h
getting my bachelor that this was not my uh my uh\h\h

31
00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,540
how do you say this like the the happy ending\h
in my in my career so um after after obtaining\h\h

32
00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:05,160
The Bachelor I decided this was not for me\h
and I uh I went where my art was basically\h\h

33
00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,800
telling me to go which was the cockpit of the oven\h
airplane interesting so that's that's very similar\h\h

34
00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,120
to essentially my path as well I did Aerospace\h
mechanical engineering he was like hey I don't\h\h

35
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,380
think I want a career in this for the rest of\h
my life necessarily uh and I went into Aviation\h\h

36
00:03:19,380 --> 00:03:23,820
myself of course um so how did you actually get\h
into Aviation at that point what was your next\h\h

37
00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:30,240
step uh officer I got my private budget license\h
so I managed to get some flying hours and uh as\h\h

38
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:37,200
I said I uh I pursued the commercial pilot license\h
just shortly afterwards uh but in in Europe it's\h\h

39
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,700
very difficult to get a job we don't have general\h
aviation like you have in the states so for a year\h\h

40
00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:46,800
I had to do a lot of sightseeing flights and a\h
lot of cleaning hangers Etc before I was finally\h\h

41
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,740
invited for my first interview with a real Airline\h
I was 20 years old and I was basically hired as a\h\h

42
00:03:52,740 --> 00:03:58,680
first officer co-pilot on the [\h__\h] 50 turboprop\h
and I will just refer to it as the F50 because I\h\h

43
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,660
know how funny the brand [\h__\h] sounds in the\h
English language you can imagine the jokes we\h\h

44
00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:08,820
used to [\h__\h] 50 is quite a slow airplane so you\h
can imagine the jokes over the radio show sir okay\h\h

45
00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:14,280
it's a family yeah good to know yeah um so I was\h
hired as a co-pilot on the on the F50 which is a\h\h

46
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:20,640
Dutch Dutch airplane which was uh really cool and\h
that Airline was basically specialized in leasing\h\h

47
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:26,700
out their airplanes including crew to other\h
companies so while flying the F50 I was flying\h\h

48
00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:32,760
for multiple European airlines but I was also\h
flying for African Airlines for about two years\h\h

49
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:38,220
both Sahara and sub-Saharan which was a really\h
interesting operation especially as a young pilot\h\h

50
00:04:38,220 --> 00:04:43,380
with only a handful of hours under his belts and\h
most interestingly enough we did a lot of contract\h\h

51
00:04:43,380 --> 00:04:49,680
work in Afghanistan so we for flying military\h
contracts uh fee of our flying out of Kabul and\h\h

52
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,980
those those Impressions have left uh their Mark\h
only in a positive way it was really all was to\h\h

53
00:04:55,980 --> 00:05:00,780
highlight of my career especially being so young\h
having all the freedom so I did that for about two\h\h

54
00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:05,940
two and a half years before I was able to move on\h
and I was hired as a first officer on the Boeing\h\h

55
00:05:05,940 --> 00:05:11,160
737 for a Dutch Airline that's that's interesting\h
let's if we can we talk a little bit more about\h\h

56
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,680
flying at a cabal sure in Afghanistan so what did\h
a normal Mission look like for you flying around\h\h

57
00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:22,560
there so you said VFR so you talk about flying\h
in the day good weather you know theoretically um\h\h

58
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:28,920
yeah what what did those missions look like uh the\h
company was hired by the Norwegian Army if I'm not\h\h

59
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,140
mistaken and they were hired for roughly 80 hours\h
a month especially in the beginning which was 2006\h\h

60
00:05:34,140 --> 00:05:41,220
early 2007 we only flew maybe 20 or 30 hours a\h
month for the Norwegian Army but it was a really\h\h

61
00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:46,680
really small world especially being based in Kabul\h
with all the nationalities mending together so in\h\h

62
00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,300
the end uh when we were having coffee or later\h
on in the evening having dinner or a beer many\h\h

63
00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:57,180
of the people came towards us both the Danish the\h
Dutch even the Americans forces and they basically\h\h

64
00:05:57,180 --> 00:06:02,220
asked us if we could fly maybe the next day\h
another flight to another airport like kuldus or\h\h

65
00:06:02,220 --> 00:06:08,340
uh Kandahar Etc and in the end we flew not just a\h
Norwegian Army but we basically flew anything and\h\h

66
00:06:08,340 --> 00:06:14,340
everywhere where someone else required us to go\h
were you staying on a base yeah we were based in\h\h

67
00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:19,680
Kabul on Kaya which is the military base and it's\h
it's like a big compound we had our own sleeping\h\h

68
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,320
containers there and their own little corner where\h
we could do the maintenance for airplane Etc and\h\h

69
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,720
we were basically completely self-sufficient and\h
the boss didn't really care as long as we did the\h\h

70
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,200
flights and we finished all the flights before the\h
end of the week so we had a lot of freedom there\h\h

71
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:39,240
interesting there's some beautiful land out there\h
do you have any experiences flying around there\h\h

72
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:45,960
that you like to share well every day was just\h
amazing um we were based in Kabul which is in the\h\h

73
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,400
middle of the mountains and we were flying mostly\h
to mazara Sharif and kundus in the northern part\h\h

74
00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,260
of the country maimana that means that we we had\h
to cross the mountains the Hindu Kush mountains\h\h

75
00:06:55,260 --> 00:07:00,840
every flight we flew and it's just absolutely\h
mind-blowing I I didn't really have a picture of\h\h

76
00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:06,180
Afghanistan before I went there but the moment I\h
stepped out of the airplane I was just taken away\h\h

77
00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:12,000
by the by the scenery and it's it's uh it was just\h
beautiful and especially flying over there and the\h\h

78
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,340
F50 it's not really powerful airplane so we had\h
to fly relatively low sometimes in between the\h\h

79
00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:22,980
mountain peaks and I was just glued to the window\h
which is so incredibly beautiful and Flying V of R\h\h

80
00:07:22,980 --> 00:07:29,820
means uh for the non-aviation viewers means that\h
we have to navigate by by sites by by basically\h\h

81
00:07:29,820 --> 00:07:33,960
looking out of the window and that gave us also\h
a lot of freedom so especially after becoming\h\h

82
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,520
familiar with the roots in the straight line going\h
to the airports we started to find our different\h\h

83
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,560
ways along the mountains and just enjoying the\h
scenery as we went that was especially with\h\h

84
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,280
for weather it was it was mind-blowing it\h
was beautiful the ultimate low levels I bet\h\h

85
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:54,600
yeah exactly very beautiful what what time period\h
was this again um the company had a contract from\h\h

86
00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:04,920
2006 until 2012 I think but I only flew there in\h
2006 and 2008. okay I was flying uh in Afghanistan\h\h

87
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:11,160
um the 2012 time frame so it looks like we just\h
missed each other yeah I guess so yeah they're uh\h\h

88
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,200
higher altitudes as well I would imagine but\h
yeah yeah we didn't get much higher than 22\h\h

89
00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,400
000 feet or something so we were really low\h
level low level operating there and how many\h\h

90
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,800
other Pilots like yourself are doing that uh well\h
we had maybe 100 pilots in the company flying\h\h

91
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:30,360
the F50 and a handful of them especially in the\h
beginning were volunteering to go to Afghanistan\h\h

92
00:08:31,260 --> 00:08:37,200
um yeah I guess in the end maybe half of\h
them uh went to Afghanistan and especially\h\h

93
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,340
after they came back with all the great stories\h
more and more people wanted to go to Afghanistan\h\h

94
00:08:41,340 --> 00:08:46,020
right as we were flying uh a fleet of I think\h
eight airplanes and most of them were flying\h\h

95
00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:50,580
in Africa for different airlines and one of them\h
was flying in Afghanistan and after we came back\h\h

96
00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:56,400
with all the stories a lot of a lot of other guys\h
they actually decided to give it a try and uh just\h\h

97
00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,200
changed scenery from Nigeria to Afghanistan which\h
was a welcome change for many people sounds like\h\h

98
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:06,900
great flying um did you ever have any emergencies\h
there so you're kind of imagine once you leave the\h\h

99
00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:10,860
base and you're flying down a little like that you\h
don't have a ton of options if you ever had any\h\h

100
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:17,160
um you know complications on your flights I'll say\h
yeah yeah and basically this was also the stuff\h\h

101
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,260
that we had to solve all by ourselves especially\h
um the airplane was maintained by our own mechanic\h\h

102
00:09:22,260 --> 00:09:26,880
there but sometimes spare parts were hard to get\h
so if you're flying over the mountains uh you\h\h

103
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,440
have some systems acting up you just have to make\h
the best out of it and we were flying for you for\h\h

104
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:37,560
for fortunately I never had any engine failures\h
there but we basically drew our own Escape Routes\h\h

105
00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:41,940
in case we have an angio failure the mountains\h
are literally just around you so we had to find\h\h

106
00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:46,440
or basically plan our Escape Routes through\h
the valleys and through the mountains if we\h\h

107
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:52,080
had an engine failure again fortunately I didn't\h
have that but especially in the beginning 2006 it\h\h

108
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,580
was a very hot period in the sense of a lot of\h
combats was going on and we had some instances\h\h

109
00:09:56,580 --> 00:10:02,700
where we uh had to run to the bunkers or actually\h
a last minute aboard the lending because there was\h\h

110
00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:07,080
a terror attack or Rockets attack on the year on\h
the airport so I didn't have any emergencies in\h\h

111
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:13,080
the sense of of mechanical failures but there\h
was a lot of operational stuff going on that\h\h

112
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:18,180
there was a which that made it very interesting to\h
fly there I bet did you did your aircraft take any\h\h

113
00:10:18,180 --> 00:10:24,660
actual fire at any point um well the the funny\h
thing is with the F50 uh we were blessed not to\h\h

114
00:10:24,660 --> 00:10:31,740
have a a radar warning system or an anti-missile\h
system so if they ever shot anything at us so I'm

115
00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:41,760
blissfully unaware but um yeah I guess there has\h
been some some small small arms fire yeah they're\h\h

116
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,960
coming back out a couple extra holes you didn't\h
take off with at the airplane yeah but for the\h\h

117
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:53,400
rest time uh I'm happy that I I never encountered\h
any any real serious uh uh air to ground fire we\h\h

118
00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,800
did have a couple of instances where we we were\h
being um targeters or shots while we were on the\h\h

119
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,960
ground basically by unguided RPGs or mortar\h
fire and actually it makes sense because the\h\h

120
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,920
airplanes are very vulnerable once they're on\h
the ground and so we were parked next to all\h\h

121
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:14,640
the f-16s the Dutch f-16s and Kabul and it was\h
pretty logical that this was an easy target for\h\h

122
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,800
many of the uh the Freedom Fighters or the the\h
people uh fighting there in Afghanistan so we\h\h

123
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,760
had a couple of instances where they were they\h
were trying to hit our airplane but they didn't\h\h

124
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:31,260
even come close you know in that sense I'm\h
pretty lucky interesting I think it was gosh\h\h

125
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:39,420
was it 2012 or 2015 those are my two deployments\h
I'll have to I'll have to think about it but\h\h

126
00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:47,460
um there was a marine Harrier Squadron that was\h
uh located on the ground everyone else that was\h\h

127
00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:51,900
really flying out there was from the aircraft\h
carrier including some Marine Squadron aircraft\h\h

128
00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:56,820
care in the Navy squadrons and I forget exactly\h
what it when it was but but just like you said\h\h

129
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,840
um when all the aircraft of course are on the\h
ground that's when they're the biggest target\h\h

130
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:07,860
and they actually all around the base the Marine\h
base and it'll destroying uh several harriers uh\h\h

131
00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:12,180
and killing a handful of people including the\h
commanding officer of that Harrier Squadron\h\h

132
00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:17,040
I was even aware of that was it kind of horror\h
uh I I would have to look I'm gonna whatever I\h\h

133
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:22,800
say is gonna be wrong but um uh that that's you\h
know that's the vulnerable part to have uh Jets\h\h

134
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,220
on the ground that's why we have aircraft carriers\h
you know we can have it out in the middle of the\h\h

135
00:12:26,220 --> 00:12:31,140
ocean and we're protected out there but sorry\h
just uh filling in on your story a little bit\h\h

136
00:12:31,140 --> 00:12:37,560
yeah it's it's definitely an operation that's\h
not for the uh uh the faint of hearts and it's\h\h

137
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:42,000
it was kind of interesting where we were flying\h
there and you're especially as a young pilot we\h\h

138
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,980
were basically being thrown into deep um first\h
of all I was I was barely used to the airplane\h\h

139
00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:51,780
and barely used to to to fly commercially with\h
a little pressure then all of a sudden you have\h\h

140
00:12:51,780 --> 00:12:57,120
this operational uh challenges that come with it\h
especially in a war zone like Afghanistan and I\h\h

141
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,280
must say I've been really lucky I've never had any\h
uh extremely dangerous or scary situations but you\h\h

142
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:08,280
always have to be aware of the fact that you're\h
flying into war zone and in a sense it made me\h\h

143
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,660
um the pilot that I am today and it's something\h
that I'm very grateful for because it gives at\h\h

144
00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:16,860
least it gave me a certain insight and experience\h
that I could never have experienced anywhere else\h\h

145
00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:21,420
and so so then you left that what year\h
is this when you left doing that work\h\h

146
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:29,940
um I left in 2007 to join the Dutch company on\h
the 737 and basically they hired me in summer and\h\h

147
00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:34,140
in Winter I took unpaid leave and I went back to\h
Afghanistan because I really missed the adventures\h\h

148
00:13:34,140 --> 00:13:40,080
on the F50 and I was able to combine that for a\h
short while so in Winter I was flying the F50 in\h\h

149
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:45,480
Africa and Afghanistan in summer I was flying to\h
737 with holiday passengers all over Europe how\h\h

150
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,820
you know we we skipped over a little bit but how\h
was it flying over Africa were you a high altitude\h\h

151
00:13:50,820 --> 00:13:56,280
and it was kind of like anything else or were you\h
down low and with any interesting experiences all\h\h

152
00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,480
right I could probably write a book about that\h
but we were flying for multiple African Airlines\h\h

153
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:07,500
especially the Saharan Airlines who were basically\h
based out of a couple of uh countries that were\h\h

154
00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:12,900
mostly in the Saharan part we were flying just\h
normal passengers for their own Airline and that\h\h

155
00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:17,100
means that we fly normal cruising altitudes and\h
we fly to another airport and they make a landing\h\h

156
00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:21,180
there but a couple of times it happened as well\h
that somebody approached us while we were just\h\h

157
00:14:21,180 --> 00:14:25,500
ready to to board the airplane and they gave\h
us literally a piece of paper with some GPS\h\h

158
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:30,900
coordinates I said well you have to make a stop\h
there as well so basically we had some VFR charts\h\h

159
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:35,700
which were largely white because it was literally\h
unexplored areas still no elevation known so\h\h

160
00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:40,380
what we did we just climbed to normal cruising\h
altitudes and we put in the GPS coordinates in\h\h

161
00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:46,800
the really really simple GPS receiver that we had\h
and the moment we started reaching our uh let's\h\h

162
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,540
say destination we started The Descent and we\h
started lookout for anything that that resembles\h\h

163
00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:57,000
something that looks like a Runway and sometimes\h
you see like a gravel strip and you see a couple\h\h

164
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,100
of people waving you make a couple of low passes\h
to make sure that all the all the people and the\h\h

165
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:06,960
and cheap and whatever they have there are out of\h
the runway you make a landing and that was really\h\h

166
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,060
the cool stuff but most of the time we flew just\h
to let's say regular airports sometimes especially\h\h

167
00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:16,620
the sub-Saharan countries literally in the middle\h
of the Jungle you have the jungle left-hand right\h\h

168
00:15:16,620 --> 00:15:21,660
you have a little gravel strip there and there was\h
uh that was really cool there was a because could\h\h

169
00:15:21,660 --> 00:15:25,980
we go back to the mysterious GPS coordinates so\h
what what happened here did you found the runway\h\h

170
00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:31,380
I assume yeah but they were not really mysterious\h
but it was just one of the small uh airstrips that\h\h

171
00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:35,460
they have in the middle of nowhere it's so\h
isolated actually extremely isolated and you\h\h

172
00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:39,960
land there and all of a sudden you see this little\h
cloud of dust coming from the distance and there\h\h

173
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,880
was a car who brought up uh probably somebody\h
who needed to go to hospital Etc so they were\h\h

174
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,080
bumping over a Dusty roads and you load in the\h
passengers and you go off again then I have no\h\h

175
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,700
clue how these people know that we were coming\h
but basically this is this is this was part of\h\h

176
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:58,200
daily life there and it was completely different\h
to the kind of Airline flying I did later in my\h\h

177
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,640
career but it was extremely interesting and you\h
just have to improvise sometimes you really have\h\h

178
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:08,940
to have to to think ahead and sometimes you just\h
have to let things go because especially in Africa\h\h

179
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:14,160
there's not too much you can plan ahead and it was\h
it was really cool especially as a young pilot and\h\h

180
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:20,640
like you said blissfully unaware sometimes but\h
really cool very interesting any interesting\h\h

181
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:27,360
weather in Africa um yeah I had to fly around yeah\h
especially in Nigeria around the equator as you\h\h

182
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,580
probably know as an aviator around the equator\h
that he said he's huge thunderstorms the itcz\h\h

183
00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:39,300
which is the area where a lot of moist and and\h
hot air is rising up rapidly creating violent\h\h

184
00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:45,000
thunderstorms and if the weather is nice flying in\h
Africa is really nice but if the weather is is bad\h\h

185
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,800
it's uh it's a completely different experience\h
and I've seen some really really heavy weather\h\h

186
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:55,440
there and the F50 was equipped with a with a\h
modest weather radar let's say not the best but\h\h

187
00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,000
sometimes you would just holding on tight and\h
hoping that the airplane would come out in the\h\h

188
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,700
other side fortunately the F50 is a really really\h
uh tough Workhorse so that was never an issue but\h\h

189
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:10,860
whether in Africa especially in summer it can\h
be uh quite something else and I must say I'm\h\h

190
00:17:10,860 --> 00:17:14,460
really happy that I flew there with a such a tough\h
airplane especially in the beginning part of my\h\h

191
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:19,800
career so nowadays I'm I'm equipped with a lot of\h
knowledge and experience that I wouldn't have have\h\h

192
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:25,380
uh gains if I was if I was only flying in the\h
Netherlands let's say I bet wow awesome thanks\h\h

193
00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:31,140
for getting back to that um and so now you've kind\h
of you've taken a step back from that again right\h\h

194
00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:35,820
yes or at least from flying in Afghanistan and\h
you're back at the airlines in the 7-3 he said\h\h

195
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,640
um and how long have you been in that\h
position I was flying to 737 in total\h\h

196
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:48,240
for four and a half years uh which was a really\h
good experience I must say in the beginning uh was\h\h

197
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,740
um I was missing the adventure and I was really\h
missing the uh the operational flying we did on\h\h

198
00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:58,560
the on the F50 because basically I was coming\h
from flying in in Afghanistan dodging bullets\h\h

199
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:04,080
and RPGs and all of a sudden I'm sitting in an\h
airliner with 200 passengers to their holiday\h\h

200
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:10,140
destination and I really missed the adventure\h
in retrospect uh it was a it was one of the\h\h

201
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:14,460
best moves I could make because um I was\h
getting too used to the adventure and I\h\h

202
00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:19,740
were getting too used to the non-standard type\h
of flying and flying the 737 for a really really\h\h

203
00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:27,660
professional and good airline in the Netherlands\h
gave me the operational professionalism that I uh\h\h

204
00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:31,500
that I could only gain in the beginning part of my\h
career so I was flying there for four and a half\h\h

205
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:37,680
years gaining a lot of really valuable experience\h
on the uh on the fast jets with glass cockpits and\h\h

206
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,720
um in retrospect it was just a perfect balance of\h
flying two and a half years let's say uh Indiana\h\h

207
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,940
Jones type of Adventures and four and a half years\h
of flying for a really professional Airline and\h\h

208
00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:53,580
this laid the the foundation for the rest of\h
my career I think very good and then uh and\h\h

209
00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:59,940
I understand now you're in the 747 yeah in 2011 I\h
was lucky enough to be hired as a first officer on\h\h

210
00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:07,980
the 747 I was 27 years old so it was pretty pretty\h
young for a 747 operator and um yeah this was just\h\h

211
00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:13,560
a dream coming true for me as a pilot especially\h
young Pilots I've Just Seen over the 747 it's it's\h\h

212
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:19,740
a beautiful airplane it's it's it's like an icon\h
of 20th century Aviation and it was it was just\h\h

213
00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:26,640
a dream coming true and coming from the 737 it's\h
a relatively small step going to the 747 and it's\h\h

214
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,020
just got two more engines but the systems are\h
more automated and the handling is pretty much\h\h

215
00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:35,400
the same but the whole operation was completely\h
different so instead of just flying up and down\h\h

216
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,260
from Amsterdam with a handful of passengers I'm\h
now flying long hole sometimes flying for 12 hours\h\h

217
00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:46,620
yeah so where were you going in the 747 where do\h
you kind of fly nowadays um the company I fly for\h\h

218
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:53,280
right now has about six or seven destinations both\h
the United States uh Europe and in China but in\h\h

219
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,260
the past I was flying for a different company and\h
we were flying literally worldwide I think we had\h\h

220
00:19:58,260 --> 00:20:03,840
about 120 or 130 destinations that's excluding all\h
the charter flights that were coming up as well\h\h

221
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:10,020
and basically with the 747 in the last 12 13 years\h
I've been flying literally all over the world just\h\h

222
00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:15,480
any Runway that's good to accommodate the 747 uh\h
we went there with all sorts of freight and cargo\h\h

223
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:21,180
and it was uh it was it was a nice combination\h
or actually it is a nice combination of the\h\h

224
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:26,760
um operational and and challenging flying\h
I did on the F50 combined with the standard\h\h

225
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:32,160
professional flying on the 737 in a perfect\h
mixture that's cool so if it really has some\h\h

226
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:37,500
awesome experiences flying do you even track\h
how many hours you have now yeah yeah of course\h\h

227
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:43,080
I put every flight in my logbook because we were\h
it's mandatory to keep track of all your flights\h\h

228
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:49,080
um I have close to nine and a half thousand hours\h
now of which about six thousand dollars on the 747\h\h

229
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:54,240
and um yeah it's it's uh it's difficult to say\h
if it's a lot of experience I think from my age\h\h

230
00:20:54,240 --> 00:21:02,100
it's uh it's considered a considerable experience\h
awesome uh so you've been flying since you were\h\h

231
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:07,740
14 years old I understand now that you are also a\h
photographer and you take photos in the aircraft\h\h

232
00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:13,260
is that corrected that's yeah that's correct um\h
and the photography is actually a career that\h\h

233
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:17,700
started literally from the first day I started\h
flying it's like a parallel career and they're\h\h

234
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:22,680
they're completely intertwined so the moment I\h
started flying as a two as a student pilot I was\h\h

235
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,000
just taken away by the views and it's also one of\h
the reasons why I wanted to become a pilot because\h\h

236
00:21:27,780 --> 00:21:33,360
the views outside of the cockpit and just a sense\h
of flight is just so amazing still after so many\h\h

237
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:38,580
years of flying and I still love it so I I always\h
took a really really cheap and small camera with\h\h

238
00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:45,720
me just to document the the views and the the\h
landscapes and it grew into um into more like\h\h

239
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:51,540
a more professional hobby once I started to fly\h
for this African and Afghan operations because\h\h

240
00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:57,300
I realized especially in Afghanistan and in a\h
certain way also Africa that the things that we\h\h

241
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:02,160
were experiencing were literally unique there was\h
no one else that was able to document it and it\h\h

242
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,780
was not just a views especially over Afghanistan\h
the mountains are beautiful every every time you\h\h

243
00:22:06,780 --> 00:22:12,120
fly over them but also the adventures the the null\h
standard stuff happening and I just wanted to tell\h\h

244
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:17,520
my parents at home and although my friends at\h
home what I was doing so for me it became very\h\h

245
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:23,340
natural almost like a mandatory to take pictures\h
of everything we did because it was so unique and\h\h

246
00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:28,140
during that time especially flying in Afghanistan\h
my photography really grew to the next level\h\h

247
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:33,540
because I wanted to capture the next thing\h
that was a challenge from the cockpits since\h\h

248
00:22:34,260 --> 00:22:39,960
um 2010 I have some really professional camera\h
equipment and I try to to capture uh let's say the\h\h

249
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:45,120
Northern Lights the Moonlight from the cockpits\h
and I had so much fun doing it I started to upload\h\h

250
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:51,420
my pictures on social media which was upcoming and\h
booming back in those days and I was surprised at\h\h

251
00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:56,520
the positive way to to see that the audience the\h
internet was just loving it there's so much so\h\h

252
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,320
many people who love to see the stuff that we see\h
as pilots and especially documented in a way that\h\h

253
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:06,840
that is inaccessible for for normal passengers\h
from the cockpit we have quite quite big windows\h\h

254
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,760
with it with an almost a limited view so for me\h
it became a very natural thing to always carry\h\h

255
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,740
my camera with me and when the workload is is low\h
what I want to emphasize that it's easy to take\h\h

256
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:22,560
one or two pictures and and yeah it just it just\h
came naturally to me so now we're talking about\h\h

257
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,960
after 20 years of flying and almost 20 years of\h
Photography my photography really uh became like\h\h

258
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:33,180
my second career and some people they say well\h
if you take pictures you don't enjoy the views\h\h

259
00:23:33,180 --> 00:23:38,040
anymore or you don't enjoy what you're looking at\h
but for me it's the other way around the moment I\h\h

260
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:43,320
take pictures and the moment I'm looking out of\h
the windows with with a certain composition in\h\h

261
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:50,520
mind with my camera on hand I start to appreciate\h
it actually even more and okay granted I'm I'm\h\h

262
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,620
taking away by the views to begin with but many of\h
my colleagues they're so numbed down from all the\h\h

263
00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:59,880
views because you see the Northern Lights again\h
you see the shooting stars again it's like okay\h\h

264
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:04,080
well how many hours do we have to go and I take\h
some pictures and some of the colleagues are\h\h

265
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,400
asking about what are you taking pictures of now\h
it's like the same Milky Way again and I show them\h\h

266
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,960
on the back of the camera just live what I just\h
took a picture of and this actually opened up\h\h

267
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,540
um some of my colleagues to to realizing how\h
special it is what we see and it's only because\h\h

268
00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:22,020
they saw it on the back side of my camera that\h
they realized well it's actually kind of special\h\h

269
00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:28,620
so for me personally it's like uh it's like a a\h
mission to capture the next best thing from the\h\h

270
00:24:28,620 --> 00:24:33,780
cockpit and I I I love all the positive feedback\h
I get especially on social media where people\h\h

271
00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:39,420
are really uh yeah enjoying the stuff that we\h
see as Pilots that'd be great if at one point\h\h

272
00:24:39,420 --> 00:24:43,800
in the future you know we could bring the photos\h
up and look at them but um you do have a website\h\h

273
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,020
where your photos are um posted at least to some\h
degree uh we'll post that in the description so\h\h

274
00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:53,880
people can check it out um and you also have a\h
book as well is that correct yeah first of all\h\h

275
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,220
I appreciate that it's yeah my website is one of\h
the the places where people can see my portfolio\h\h

276
00:25:00,060 --> 00:25:04,620
um it's a Dutch name so best if you put it in the\h
description I'm pretty active on social media as\h\h

277
00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:10,440
well so if you Google my name you'll probably\h
find my my social media and in 2015 I was lucky\h\h

278
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,960
enough to get in touch with a British publisher\h
um actually I met the guy in North Korea that's\h\h

279
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,300
a long story but only after I came back in Europe\h
he basically uh contacted me he said well I was he\h\h

280
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:26,040
was really impressed with especially the stories\h
I had from Afghanistan and uh and Africa because\h\h

281
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:32,580
he's he's very enthusiastic about Aviation as well\h
and he asked me well shall we have a coffee and\h\h

282
00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:36,360
see we can come up with a book and a couple of\h
months later my first book was published called\h\h

283
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:42,660
cargo pilots and it's basically telling a visual\h
story about my uh experiences as a pilot and\h\h

284
00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:47,700
it's not in a in a boring fashion that I'm just\h
showing pictures of every destination a really\h\h

285
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:52,800
good graphics designer as a young guy who's who's\h
designing all my calendars and books nowadays he\h\h

286
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,820
came up with a with a really natural way of of\h
telling the story through pictures and words\h\h

287
00:25:56,820 --> 00:26:04,380
and that book was published I think in 2015 and I\h
remember that the publisher told me he said well I\h\h

288
00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:10,080
expected it as a market for let's say a thousands\h
Aviation nerds worldwide that's about it so don't\h\h

289
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,040
expect anything big from it and now we're already\h
in the fifth printer and then the book is just\h\h

290
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:19,620
still selling and for those people who think\h
you get rich from making a book you don't so\h\h

291
00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:25,200
don't even bother doing that if you want to get\h
rich but for me it was the biggest incentive to\h\h

292
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,720
take my own photography actually to the next level\h
because I realized if this book for such a small\h\h

293
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,420
audience is already be so popular and already as\h
I said in the fifth print run right now there is a\h\h

294
00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:41,700
there is a world out there that I want to provide\h
with with my pictures and and maybe narratives\h\h

295
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:46,500
here and there so it's um it's it's amazing how\h
the book is still selling and I'm really hoping\h\h

296
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:51,540
to hopefully publish more books in the future but\h
let's let's wait and see awesome now that was one\h\h

297
00:26:51,540 --> 00:26:56,700
of my favorite things flying you know it's just\h
the views that you're exposed to and of course\h\h

298
00:26:57,420 --> 00:27:01,260
um the fighters we have a little more you know\h
maneuverability to kind of position ourselves\h\h

299
00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:05,820
or you know kind of get in the clouds and zip\h
around a little bit and that was you know that\h\h

300
00:27:05,820 --> 00:27:10,260
was one of the most fun fun things of flying\h
for me was just being able to enjoy those views\h\h

301
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:16,320
and we'll be part of it up there uh and it you\h
know it's um it's it's it's great that you're\h\h

302
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,040
able to capture those and share those with\h
people because a lot of them are so unique\h\h

303
00:27:20,820 --> 00:27:24,300
um and yeah like you said pilot sometimes we\h
we forget to look out the window just as much\h\h

304
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:28,200
as anyone else does sometimes so it can be a\h
great reminder it's a nice office with a few\h\h

305
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,240
but even even after a while it just gets it\h
just becomes an office so you really have to\h\h

306
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,880
um well you don't have to but at least I try to\h
force myself into appreciating the beauty and\h\h

307
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,080
realizing that uh it's it's really something\h
special that we that we experience every day\h\h

308
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,320
and sometimes people ask me well isn't it boring\h
and I must admit sometimes you have to get up at\h\h

309
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,340
two in the morning and with a couple of hours of\h
sleep and then you're sitting there maybe a bit\h\h

310
00:27:53,340 --> 00:27:58,680
grumpy and after two hours I'm having breakfast\h
over the Alps and the sun is rising and honestly\h\h

311
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,780
you have to that it's it's it's a reminder\h
of how absolutely amazing that job is and how\h\h

312
00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:09,780
special it is so I will never grow tired of it\h
so you've been flying for premature whole life\h\h

313
00:28:10,620 --> 00:28:16,020
um as you know I have an interest and\h
unidentified novelist phenomenon or UAP\h\h

314
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,700
you might be a good person to ask about\h
this have you ever seen anything up there\h\h

315
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:26,580
that you know has given you pause for concern\h
or otherwise is unexplainable uh yeah yeah a\h\h

316
00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:33,060
short answer yes uh long answer um we see as as\h
Pilots we see a lot of really interesting stuff\h\h

317
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,540
um not always immediately identifiable uh ever\h
since my first flight so I've been uh I've been\h\h

318
00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:43,560
looking out of the window first of all as we just\h
discussed with my photography I just love looking\h\h

319
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,420
at the Landscapes about day and nights and it's\h
just mesmerizing I'm looking at the night sky\h\h

320
00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:53,820
because I love seeing all the all the stars and\h
meteors and the the Northern Lights you name it\h\h

321
00:28:53,820 --> 00:29:00,780
and every once in a while we see something or I\h
see something that's uh that's that's uh that's\h\h

322
00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:06,840
triggering my uh my attention and sometimes even\h
some stuff that I haven't been able to explain so\h\h

323
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,760
far I'm always keeping uh track of what I'm seeing\h
I'm taking this especially via my camera at hands\h\h

324
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,320
I try to take pictures of what I see I try to\h
take a picture of the instrument panel including\h\h

325
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:22,020
the GPS coordinates just uh so I can track it\h
back whenever I'm back in the hotel or back at\h\h

326
00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:26,820
home to see uh what I've what I could have seen\h
maybe or if it's if there's an explanation like\h\h

327
00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:32,040
uh maybe your Rockets three and three or a rocket\h
launch Etc you never know um so I'm keeping track\h\h

328
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,880
of hey you're doing some actual homework on this\h
it sounds like you're actually trying to track it\h\h

329
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,580
do you keep those notes is that something you\h
can like continue to work and build on or yeah\h\h

330
00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:46,800
basically I I always keep all my pictures if\h
they're sharp or not I just um whenever I get\h\h

331
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,960
back to the hotel or when I get back home I uh\h
empty my memory cards from the camera I just put\h\h

332
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,640
everything in a separate folder so I never throw\h
anything away just in case I uh I see something\h\h

333
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,380
like the Holy Grail some and I didn't even spot\h
it immediately in the first glance that at least\h\h

334
00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:06,720
I have the pictures still my database but an\h
old joking aside I just keep all the notes and\h\h

335
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,100
um some of the things are really interesting\h
to dive into one of the best examples\h\h

336
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:21,180
um uh is a sighting that I had in 2014 August\h
2014. we were flying with the 747 from uh Hong\h\h

337
00:30:21,180 --> 00:30:25,740
Kong to Anchorage it was about a nine ten hour\h
flight over the Pacific and halfway to flights\h\h

338
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:30,120
we were just with two pilots uh basically\h
we already dimmed all the cockpit lights and\h\h

339
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,640
we're just looking out of the night sky just to\h
spots any meteors or or any any uh shooting stars\h\h

340
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:41,880
and all of a sudden we saw a red blob of Lights\h
just approaching us from the Horizon it was\h\h

341
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,460
basically on the surface level of the ocean and it\h
seemed to be stationary the closer we got the more\h\h

342
00:30:47,460 --> 00:30:53,700
we realized there was something burning on the\h
ocean uh surface and the the lights were stable\h\h

343
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:59,940
both in intensity and and relative position and\h
it they appeared to be actually very large so\h\h

344
00:30:59,940 --> 00:31:05,280
that moment I started to take a lot of pictures\h
in in the road just consecutively just to document\h\h

345
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:11,040
what we were seeing and to give you a little\h
bit of a background story before the flights\h\h

346
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,500
we always do like probably uh you're aware of\h
it but we've aspilots we always do a thorough\h\h

347
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:21,360
flight preparation so we look at the status\h
of the airplane we look at the the route we're\h\h

348
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,040
flying we're looking at the weather and Route\h
destinations we're looking at no temps which means\h\h

349
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:33,240
a list of airspaces closed etc etc and in this\h
flight there was a lot of volcanic activity going\h\h

350
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:39,600
on both in Indonesia to the south of us Kamchatka\h
which is a Russian Peninsula on the Pacific Japan\h\h

351
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,340
but also the eluthian islands of Alaska and\h
you name it the whole I think it's called the\h\h

352
00:31:44,340 --> 00:31:50,700
Pacific Rim or the ring of fire was was rumbling\h
and spooling a lot of ash clouds Etc and we\h\h

353
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:56,280
were basically looking at all the ash clouds and\h
potential eruptions along our route the moment we\h\h

354
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,300
saw those red lights even though it was hundreds\h
of miles maybe thousands of miles from the nearest\h\h

355
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:04,620
coastline the first thing that came to mind was\h
well we're looking at something that was not\h\h

356
00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:11,400
planned that was not expected and it looks awfully\h
like a a volcano basically exploding below us so\h\h

357
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,860
our first concern was the flight safety was our\h
flight safety or the safety of our airplane and\h\h

358
00:32:17,580 --> 00:32:22,740
um the biggest danger with uh with volcanic\h
eruptions is potentially flying into an ash cloud\h\h

359
00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:26,940
so we were keeping track of everything we were\h
seeing fortunately we were able to stay visual\h\h

360
00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:31,860
we could still see the stars we just continued\h
flying on the track we were flying and really\h\h

361
00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:37,080
afraid that if we start to deviate left or right\h
actually because the track brought us exactly over\h\h

362
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,940
the red lights but if we would have deviated left\h
or right we might actually inadvertently end up in\h\h

363
00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:48,420
the ash clouds so as long as we could stay visual\h
we just maintained our track and that brought us\h\h

364
00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:52,980
exactly over the red lights and I was able to take\h
some pretty detailed pictures and we were actually\h\h

365
00:32:52,980 --> 00:32:58,440
making jokes together saying well you know if we\h
see one of these volcanoes erupting below us that\h\h

366
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,800
means we might be uh witness to a whole chain\h
of islands being uh being created as we speak\h\h

367
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:11,340
so at least I claimed one of those islands as my\h
own but this was uh this this was really really\h\h

368
00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:16,680
disconcerting because we had no clue what we were\h
seeing I put it online back then it was only on\h\h

369
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,500
Facebook I think and basically asking people what\h
do you think we saw here Etc and it really took\h\h

370
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:26,460
off it was taken up by some of the Dutch media\h
and later on International media as well with\h\h

371
00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:32,460
headlines like pilot is is looking at UFO based\h
on the water and aliens and this was absolutely\h\h

372
00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:37,320
the stuff that I was not into and I was not even\h
remotely thinking about when we saw those lights\h\h

373
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:44,520
and um long story short it took me a couple of\h
years but now I found out after researching the\h\h

374
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:50,460
internet and researching some some other sources\h
that what we saw was actually um let's say maybe\h\h

375
00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:56,280
even illegal fishing fleets from the Chinese\h
or the Chinese fishing fleet fishing for sorry\h\h

376
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,740
or makro in the North Pacific and the moment we\h
saw it was in 2014 it must have been one of the\h\h

377
00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:07,440
first times that they used these huge red lights\h
to basically subdue the the fish and one of the\h\h

378
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:13,080
reasons um uh we were really hesitant to call\h
it a fishing fleet is because of the size of\h\h

379
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,880
the individual lights and also the fact that red\h
light doesn't penetrate sea water so for me this\h\h

380
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,920
was a really uh illogical choice and I we were\h
thinking about maybe some military activity or as\h\h

381
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,380
I said to a volcanic activity and it took me many\h
years to find out even with satellite imagery that\h\h

382
00:34:28,380 --> 00:34:33,480
was released a couple of years ago to basically\h
establish once and for all that it was just really\h\h

383
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,520
something when they uh the simple fishing fleet\h
but it was interesting to see that little media\h\h

384
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:44,280
were taking it up as evidence that Dr pilot was\h
seeing something uh something interesting that's\h\h

385
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,020
so amazing that they were they were illegally\h
fishing with lights you know in that manner\h\h

386
00:34:49,020 --> 00:34:53,520
and you're able to spot that on the ocean that's\h
incredible and and actually I've even seen some\h\h

387
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,200
satellite imagery where you can actually see the\h
red lights from space as well and I must say I'm\h\h

388
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:03,780
not 100 sure it's illegal but apparently these\h
sizes of fishing fleet they use are massive and to\h\h

389
00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:09,480
give you an example and I took some pictures as a\h
comparison as well all the I think two days later\h\h

390
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,700
we were flying this at exactly the same altitudes\h
from Anchorage to I think it was Chicago and we\h\h

391
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:19,620
were flying over the city of Winnipeg which is\h
around let's say 20 or 25 kilometers wide so\h\h

392
00:35:19,620 --> 00:35:25,500
that must be let's say uh 10 to 15 miles wide and\h
the City of Winnipeg especially from that altitude\h\h

393
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:31,020
was even smaller compared to the to the group of\h
lights that we saw from the sky and in comparison\h\h

394
00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:35,820
it looked actually like every individual light\h
was the size of a football stadium and that really\h\h

395
00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:42,180
triggered my my my thinking wondering what what\h
we saw there so this is just an example of how\h\h

396
00:35:42,180 --> 00:35:47,460
I keep track of all the details of what I've seen\h
uh just to find out what it was and if there's any\h\h

397
00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:53,160
safety issue uh for us as Pilots awesome that's\h
great they actually ran it down instead of just\h\h

398
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,760
um well I mean what what else is is your other\h
option right is there any type of reporting\h\h

399
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,580
mechanism for an identified objects uh where you\h
where you fly or within your company or anything\h\h

400
00:36:05,580 --> 00:36:09,840
of that nature well in this case with the with\h
the red lights uh we immediately made a pirate\h\h

401
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,760
pilot reports over the HF frequency to notify\h
air traffic control that we were potentially\h\h

402
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:20,880
seeing uh the the birth of an ash clouds\h
because this is really safety related and\h\h

403
00:36:21,540 --> 00:36:25,800
um especially in those really remote areas of\h
the planets of the planet there are not too many\h\h

404
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,960
pilots who actually witness or see things so it\h
happened a couple of times that I uh that I saw a\h\h

405
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,760
volcanic eruption in Alaska we call it through to\h
the air traffic controller and they make a note of\h\h

406
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:41,820
it and sometimes they can even notify the uh the\h
local park ranger or whatever it is in this case\h\h

407
00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:45,840
we made a note of it I have no clue what happened\h
with it probably nothing too much because there\h\h

408
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:52,500
was no no threats in the ends um but yeah you you\h
mentioned a UAP and other uh things that might\h\h

409
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:58,320
pose a threats we might go into it later but I've\h
seen a couple of let's say phenomena or lights in\h\h

410
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:04,620
the sky that I cannot still cannot identify and\h
it's very difficult to report those because every\h\h

411
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:10,800
airline has a really solid safety management\h
system that means that if we see something\h\h

412
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:16,560
that could potentially be a threat to our airplane\h
let's say if there's a an issue with air traffic\h\h

413
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:22,440
control if we get too close to another airplane we\h
can file a report and this is taken up through the\h\h

414
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,320
chain of of safety inspectors Etc so every airline\h
in the world has this really solid system but the\h\h

415
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,520
problem is if I see a light let's say that is\h
a relatively simple light that I cannot explain

416
00:37:34,860 --> 00:37:40,500
um if I write a report nobody can do anything\h
with that unless it becomes a clear threat some\h\h

417
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:44,700
of the things I've seen from the sky that are\h
still cannot identify they were very far away\h\h

418
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:49,860
and so they never really posed the threats to\h
my airplane into the safety of the flight and\h\h

419
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,500
um there is not really a system in place right\h
now in Europe or even in the states I think that\h\h

420
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:59,880
can deal with those kind of reports because\h
for example if I write a report to my chief\h\h

421
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,500
pilot saying well I saw the bright light with\h
the moving erratically oh yeah he's looking at\h\h

422
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:09,900
the report saying oh happy for you but there's\h
nothing I can do with that we cannot change the\h\h

423
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:16,620
the procedures or we cannot change the the um uh\h
the the workflow in the company to to mitigate\h\h

424
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:23,100
that so right now there is not really a system in\h
place except if there's a really clear potential\h\h

425
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:29,100
danger for the airplane what tools would you do\h
you have as a pilot inside of your airplane to\h\h

426
00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:36,180
determine uh potential threats outside of your\h
visual range um the modern airplanes especially\h\h

427
00:38:36,180 --> 00:38:43,380
planes like the 737 747 uh we have a t-can system\h
like I think even you guys the F-18 had a t-cas\h\h

428
00:38:43,380 --> 00:38:48,660
system as well or something equivalent um it's\h
using transponder signals to communicate with\h\h

429
00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:52,920
other airplanes and every airplane is receiving\h
all the signals from other airplanes around it\h\h

430
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:59,460
the the computers constantly verify each\h
other's sister signals and the moment we\h\h

431
00:38:59,460 --> 00:39:05,880
get too close to another airplane the system start\h
to communicate and and issue an either a traffic\h\h

432
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:12,120
warning or an advisory or even a resolutionary\h
resolution advice meaning that they're that they\h\h

433
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,860
can communicate and tell us Pilots to either\h
climb or descend so we can avoid each other\h\h

434
00:39:16,860 --> 00:39:23,220
now this is a really good system but there's one\h
downside it only works if the other airplane has\h\h

435
00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:29,880
the same transponder system Tika system is told\h
and some of the lights that I've seen um they were\h\h

436
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,680
not showing up on tcast they were not showing\h
up on on any other system and probably because\h\h

437
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,960
it's it's either not carrying a transponder or\h
it's not even an airplane in the traditional\h\h

438
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:45,300
sense apart from that we have a weather radar on\h
boards but as it says already the weather radar\h\h

439
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:52,560
is specialized in picking up weather especially uh\h
precipitation so we can see uh thunderstorms and\h\h

440
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:59,220
and that's uh heavy rain showers Etc in some cases\h
it can even pick up turbulence but it cannot pick\h\h

441
00:39:59,220 --> 00:40:07,200
up solid objects like you guys with military jet\h
scan so sometimes the the weather radar is uh is\h\h

442
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,700
the the signals are bouncing off other airplanes\h
if they're really close so you can actually uh\h\h

443
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:18,540
see the the weather uh radar return coinciding\h
with the tcash signal so that means that it's not\h\h

444
00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:24,000
it's not only indicating system is working from\h
the other airplane it's actually reflecting the\h\h

445
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,260
weather radar signals as well but it's pretty\h
rare that you see that and it's like it's kind\h\h

446
00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:32,280
of useless because the airplane is already\h
so close by so the weather radar is picking\h\h

447
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,900
up weather not other airplanes or phenomena the\h
tcash system we have is only picking up all the\h\h

448
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:43,920
t-car signals and for the rest we just have big\h
windows and our uh IR eyeballs too uh to look at\h\h

449
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,600
all the traffic that's that's the only stuff\h
that we have on board to to identify anything\h\h

450
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:54,060
else that's outside of the cockpits have you\h
ever seen on anything on any of those sensors\h\h

451
00:40:54,060 --> 00:41:01,800
that you would perhaps classify as a UAP or have\h
all your settings been with your eyes yeah I've\h\h

452
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,880
never picked up anything on the instruments that\h
could indicate something anomalous or strange\h\h

453
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:13,500
um the stuff that I have seen with my with my eyes\h
is I was probably beyond the range of t-cas anyway\h\h

454
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:20,160
um and I think the stuff that I've seen\h
might not even qualify let's say as an\h\h

455
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,660
airplane in the traditional sense so\h
I I doubt if there were the radar or\h\h

456
00:41:24,660 --> 00:41:27,900
the other systems could actually pick\h
it up in the first place so let's talk\h\h

457
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,260
about what though what did those lights do\h
what they look like where they come from\h\h

458
00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:36,480
um well they're let's say I think there are four\h
four times I've seen something from the cockpit\h\h

459
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,980
that I couldn't identify because I think it's\h
uh it's it's important to stress that most of\h\h

460
00:41:40,980 --> 00:41:46,260
the stuff that we see from the cockpits can\h
eventually be identified but the first time\h\h

461
00:41:46,260 --> 00:41:51,840
I saw something that's still a genuine unknown\h
to me was in 2005 when I just started flying the\h\h

462
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:57,720
the ef50 the turbo prop so I was pretty new\h
to Aviation and a really inexperienced first\h\h

463
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:03,300
officer and we were flying over Germany in the\h
evening or at night in between two Cloud layers\h\h

464
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,920
and all of a sudden we were just chatting with\h
my captain maybe he was even instructor it was\h\h

465
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:16,140
pretty new and from I'm looking in his Direction\h
and I see a white light size is is impossible to\h\h

466
00:42:16,140 --> 00:42:23,520
determine because it was just a very very bright\h
light falling or moving vertically um through\h\h

467
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,900
the both of the cloud layers vertically down and\h
my captain saw it as well and we were both just\h\h

468
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:34,020
intrigued and the object or light source whatever\h
it was it was falling vertically very fast and it\h\h

469
00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:38,820
was Illuminating the clouds below as it as it\h
fell through and it disappeared and I remember\h\h

470
00:42:38,820 --> 00:42:43,620
that my instructor my captain was saying wow I've\h
never seen anything like that and I realized well\h\h

471
00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:48,120
then that case it must be something special\h
because I was so so inexperienced as a pilot\h\h

472
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,540
um I have no clue what it was and this was\h
really interesting because it's as as I said\h\h

473
00:42:54,540 --> 00:43:00,960
it's very difficult to to uh to judge the size of\h
of a light source it was just pure white and it\h\h

474
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:07,680
was falling vertically but it was falling so fast\h
and moving so fast that it seemed to be propelled\h\h

475
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,900
instead of the terminal velocity because you would\h
expect if you if you if you have a rock or any any\h\h

476
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:17,700
solid object it falls with a certain speed and it\h
maintains the terminal velocity once it reaches\h\h

477
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:23,580
speed but this was just moving so fast uh much\h
faster than terminal much much faster yeah and\h\h

478
00:43:23,580 --> 00:43:29,040
it only lasted maybe for one and a half or two\h
seconds and it was gone distance and known to to\h\h

479
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:34,260
me it was difficult to to judge but I guess it was\h
maybe 10 kilometers uh let's say five miles seven\h\h

480
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:40,680
miles um to the to the left of our track and I've\h
never seen anything we're actually there's another\h\h

481
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,640
sighting that that's pretty similar to that but\h
I've never seen anything like that over Germany\h\h

482
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,140
I've never seen anything that's uh that could\h
explain what we what what we saw there yes said\h\h

483
00:43:49,140 --> 00:43:54,180
that was over Germany can you be any more specific\h
or I'm pretty sure it was pretty close to the city\h\h

484
00:43:54,180 --> 00:44:01,500
of Nuremberg and yeah you can look it up on uh on\h
Google Maps but I don't think there's any anything\h\h

485
00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:07,800
out there that could explain it uh because the\h
funny thing is as commercial pilots emotion\h\h

486
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,780
commercial pilots don't have a military background\h
so if we see something that we cannot identify\h\h

487
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:18,120
the default answer is yeah it must be something\h
military uh like a missile launch or something a\h\h

488
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,860
shooting exercise but this was the light that was\h
falling vertically down it was not even close to\h\h

489
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:30,000
to a military base or anything else so and there\h
was no way that I could rationally explain what it\h\h

490
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,400
what it was do you know how high the first Cloud\h
deck was that it went through can you call that no\h\h

491
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,320
I think we were flying around 20 000 feet and the\h
cloud deck above us was always a solid Cloud deck\h\h

492
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:46,980
must have been let's say 25 000 feet and below us\h
well let's say 10 000 feet okay so roughly pretty\h\h

493
00:44:46,980 --> 00:44:51,420
big you know window of clear air that he saw this\h
it was just moving very fast that's why I only saw\h\h

494
00:44:51,420 --> 00:44:57,000
it for a couple seconds yeah yeah very fast and\h
as as I said you know it's it's very difficult to\h\h

495
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:03,780
judge size and distance but I I think it must have\h
been like a relatively small but very very bright\h\h

496
00:45:03,780 --> 00:45:08,100
slides that was falling at roughly let's say\h
seven miles or ten kilometers from our position

497
00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:16,800
what did you do I mean you confirmed it with your\h
captain it sounds like um what else nothing I just\h\h

498
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,080
continue with the flight because as I said I\h
was completely inexperienced and if I if I see\h\h

499
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,760
my captain or a structure reacting like that\h
and just shrugging the shoulders and going oh\h\h

500
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:33,480
oh yeah I didn't really take it that serious um\h
there's another incident uh it's not even an exit\h\h

501
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,860
before we get into that let me I'm just you know\h
it's interesting to me that it was just kind of\h\h

502
00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:42,360
brushed off by the instructor because that's like\h
an incredible teaching moment essentially more\h\h

503
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,940
or less for an instructor pilot to teach someone\h
especially a new pilot my first inclination would\h\h

504
00:45:47,940 --> 00:45:53,220
be to to reach out to ATC or some type of control\h
to see if there was a missile launch or something\h\h

505
00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:59,460
like that just so they're aware that something\h
potentially dangerous was in the area in in that\h\h

506
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:03,900
particular case you know there was a potential for\h
something physical to be there in close proximity\h\h

507
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:10,740
whereas a light you saw there was a I would say\h
a less probability of danger just because the the\h\h

508
00:46:10,740 --> 00:46:15,240
relative distance and the uncertainty with what it\h
actually was but you know there's something there\h\h

509
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:21,720
you can see it and something could hit it but you\h
guys were not inclined to speak about it yeah why\h\h

510
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:28,020
why was that uh that's a very interesting question\h
and I've run into that uh many times I think it\h\h

511
00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:33,780
completely depends on the on the interest of the\h
personality of the pilot evolved I noticed with\h\h

512
00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:37,620
some other incidents if you feel like we can\h
talk about that later that my colleagues were\h\h

513
00:46:37,620 --> 00:46:41,640
completely disinterested actually it's it's almost\h
like an attitude they don't even want to know\h\h

514
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:48,420
and um that's that's preventing some of\h
the pilots from investigating what they see\h\h

515
00:46:49,380 --> 00:46:54,120
um actually just recently uh one of my colleagues\h
actually came forward to me with her with his own\h\h

516
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,040
sightings and he said literally I don't want to\h
know and I prefer I never saw it because it's so\h\h

517
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:05,820
uh strange and I think this plays a major role\h
in how some people or how some Pilots react to\h\h

518
00:47:05,820 --> 00:47:12,360
something that they cannot explain um personally\h
I always contact nowadays Air Traffic Control\h\h

519
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:17,820
if I see something most of the time it it\h
happens to be something very mundane but\h\h

520
00:47:17,820 --> 00:47:23,100
um yeah I completely agree with you sometimes\h
we we see some lights or some objects that could\h\h

521
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:28,440
potentially form a risk for the flight safety\h
aspect of the uh of the flights and it doesn't\h\h

522
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,540
necessarily need to be a anomalous object it\h
could it could be something mundane but you\h\h

523
00:47:33,540 --> 00:47:40,620
know it's pulling attention it's causing an issue\h
um and this one there was no Indica oh you didn't\h\h

524
00:47:40,620 --> 00:47:44,760
have any systems on the on the on this aircraft\h
that would have could have provided indications\h\h

525
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:51,240
on them no no nothing no good um I'm sorry for\h
cutting off your story a minute I'd love to if\h\h

526
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:55,560
you could please continue with it yeah well no\h
the numbers uh there's so much ground took over\h\h

527
00:47:55,560 --> 00:48:00,900
here uh but it really looks like something that\h
I saw a couple of years later when flying to 737\h\h

528
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,840
um we were flying I think it must have been\h
from from from somewhere southern Europe uh\h\h

529
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:12,240
back to Amsterdam there was a summer day it was\h
completely clear skies and we were flying parallel\h\h

530
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:17,520
to the coastline of Greece and Albania over a GNC\h
you could probably look it up on Google Earth but\h\h

531
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,940
it was just uh clear skies perfect visibility\h
and I was chatting with my with my captain and\h\h

532
00:48:23,940 --> 00:48:29,520
we were flying let's say roughly 36 000 feet\h
some something around that uh that altitude\h\h

533
00:48:30,060 --> 00:48:34,800
and it's almost the same scenario I'm looking\h
in in the direction of my captain and all of a\h\h

534
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:42,660
sudden both of us we see a really really bright\h
light falling vertically into the uh uh Aegean\h\h

535
00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:48,720
Sea and it the we saw it emerging basically\h
from the top where the uh the window frame\h\h

536
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:55,560
begins falling vertically into the sea it was\h
it's very difficult to judge sizes or distances\h\h

537
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:00,000
especially because this time it was during day\h
and the other falling light was during the night\h\h

538
00:49:01,140 --> 00:49:06,720
um but the the the the the vertical speed was\h
roughly the same it was a little bit further\h\h

539
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:13,200
away I think it was around 30 to 40 kilometers\h
so let's say 20 15 to 20 miles uh from our flight\h\h

540
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:19,980
path and it just fell vertically moved vertically\h
down and it's it disappeared into the into the sea\h\h

541
00:49:19,980 --> 00:49:26,340
it was very close to the um the fir boundary the\h
the airspace boundary between Greece and Albania\h\h

542
00:49:26,340 --> 00:49:31,920
and I decided to ask the Greek controller if\h
there was any military exercise because the\h\h

543
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:37,080
first go-to solution that we think of is it must\h
be something military which is still behaving\h\h

544
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,160
oddly but at least wanted to know if there\h
was some sort of shooting exercise going on\h\h

545
00:49:41,700 --> 00:49:47,160
and I contacted the Greek air traffic controller\h
and he was getting almost a noise and of course\h\h

546
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:52,620
there's nothing going on okay now contact the\h
Albanian controller goodbye and it was like the\h\h

547
00:49:52,620 --> 00:49:58,740
this is something that I noticed more often that's\h
Air Traffic Control they get really annoyed with\h\h

548
00:49:58,740 --> 00:50:02,520
these kind of requests like no of course there's\h
nothing going on just you probably saw nothing\h\h

549
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:08,940
just called continue he didn't say this literally\h
but this was a bit my my uh my impression and that\h\h

550
00:50:08,940 --> 00:50:13,020
really made me wonder what it was because first\h
of all a military exercise is on the boundary\h\h

551
00:50:13,020 --> 00:50:20,640
between two countries is is uh uh strange and the\h
way this light was moving was also very strange\h\h

552
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,020
it just disappeared into the ocean below and\h
you would expect with a shooting exercise that\h\h

553
00:50:25,020 --> 00:50:29,520
they shoot something upwards uh and and in the\h
end let's say if they shoot a missile or rock\h\h

554
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:35,700
it up once the fuel is expired it just comes\h
down without any light source so I have no clue\h\h

555
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:40,920
what it was but it was very clear that air travel\h
control was just not interested now what else can\h\h

556
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,660
you do except for asking Air Traffic Control if\h
there's anything going on then if not then yeah\h\h

557
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:51,360
another one for the books interesting it's it's\h
remarkable that it was so familiar to other one\h\h

558
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:57,480
it was accelerating or at least going faster than\h
terminal velocity in this case as well yeah it\h\h

559
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,280
was not accelerating it was just constant speed\h
it was about the same speeds as the first time\h\h

560
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,500
I saw it from the F50 the intensity it was very\h
bright again but then it's difficult to compare\h\h

561
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:12,420
because the one the first one was at night so\h
the other one was in return day and uh yeah it\h\h

562
00:51:12,420 --> 00:51:17,700
just moved very fast and it it didn't make any\h
sense and it was white Pure White like the other\h\h

563
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:22,920
one yeah pure ones couldn't be a meteor I assume\h
well I just that's like the first thing I think\h\h

564
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:29,040
so have you thought about that angle I assume yeah\h
and it's um it's it's it's uh yeah it's a logical\h\h

565
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,420
explanation the problem is I've seen I've seen\h
the thousands of meteors and they always enter\h\h

566
00:51:33,420 --> 00:51:38,400
the atmosphere under a certain angle and they burn\h
up and I've seen one or two meteors that probably\h\h

567
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:45,540
didn't completely burn up they leave a beautiful\h
Trail uh like a fiery Trail um but there's a lot\h\h

568
00:51:45,540 --> 00:51:51,120
of smoke and there's a lot there's often there\h
yeah very orangey or yellow and they just burn up\h\h

569
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,080
under a certain angle and they continue into the\h
atmosphere under a certain angle I think there's\h\h

570
00:51:55,080 --> 00:52:00,000
a lot of Russian dash cam footage from some of\h
these meteors burning up uh in the atmosphere\h\h

571
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,180
and this was nothing like it's not nothing like it\h
and it was just a steady single light both cases\h\h

572
00:52:06,180 --> 00:52:10,740
that was falling vertically down there was no\h
burning sensation that was not flickering it was\h\h

573
00:52:10,740 --> 00:52:16,320
not pulsating it was not it was it was just like\h
a steady almost like an artificial really bright\h\h

574
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,940
light moving vertically down and I I don't know\h
about any meteors that could do that then again\h\h

575
00:52:20,940 --> 00:52:26,940
I'm open to any explanation um if if I if you\h
really push me for a logical explanation I would\h\h

576
00:52:26,940 --> 00:52:33,420
say uh maybe a ball lightning something that's\h
like an anomalous weather phenomena that we don't\h\h

577
00:52:33,420 --> 00:52:38,940
know anything about that could explain it but then\h
again uh that doesn't make sense for me either so\h\h

578
00:52:38,940 --> 00:52:44,100
whatever it is it's it's a genuinely known for\h
me and yeah that's it and your captain wasn't\h\h

579
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:50,760
necessarily interested in exploring exploring this\h
no I I remember uh I was asking the captain uh if\h\h

580
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,440
she knew what was going on she she just Shrugged\h
her shoulders and she was okay with me asking uh\h\h

581
00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:00,000
their traffic controller what it was and after he\h
brushes off it was like yeah okay let's continue\h\h

582
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:05,640
let's get another coffee so yeah that's that's\h
that's that's the default answer that most of\h\h

583
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,960
the most of the pilots give and I think uh you\h
know there's only so much we can do from the\h\h

584
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,420
cockpits and I think it's also very good to keep\h
in mind that we as Pilots we're not looking for\h\h

585
00:53:15,420 --> 00:53:20,940
UAP we're not looking for something uh unexplained\h
we're not looking for Mysteries we're just there\h\h

586
00:53:20,940 --> 00:53:26,760
flying the airplane from A to B and flight\h
safety is uh is the utmost importance and if\h\h

587
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,280
we see something that we cannot readily explain\h
but it's no concern for flight safety yeah what\h\h

588
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:37,080
can we do just continue and personally I I want\h
to know what I'm seeing especially as I'm looking\h\h

589
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:42,060
outside my windows constantly and uh I want to\h
I want to learn if if there's some new weather\h\h

590
00:53:42,060 --> 00:53:47,580
phenomena is if there's something else that I uh\h
that cannot explain I want to know more about it\h\h

591
00:53:47,580 --> 00:53:52,320
so I'm looking at things through my window from\h
a slightly different perspective maybe than some\h\h

592
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,240
other buttons but it's that's that's that's my\h
take on it do you think perhaps some some of these\h\h

593
00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:02,460
Pilots that don't take that much of an interest\h
in it do so because it's something they've seen\h\h

594
00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:08,100
in the past and it's not that unique or is do\h
you just think they just have a mental block\h\h

595
00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:14,940
and engaging it in some sense I think um there are\h
many many different approaches to subjects uh and\h\h

596
00:54:14,940 --> 00:54:19,560
I know a certain percentage of Pilots they have\h
a certain block they they literally do not want\h\h

597
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:25,560
to know that they even say it to me some other\h
Pilots stay there completely uninterested in in\h\h

598
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:32,160
in in observing anything they can't explain or\h
or even thinking about it all the pilots they\h\h

599
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:36,600
never look outside the window they just rather\h
read a newspaper or put on The Stormlight which\h\h

600
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,740
is like a floodlight in the cockpit blinding\h
out anything that might be visible at night\h\h

601
00:54:41,460 --> 00:54:45,780
um and other Pilots like me they do look out\h
someday they do wonder what's what's going on\h\h

602
00:54:45,780 --> 00:54:50,880
there I don't think there's a go-to answer I think\h
it's uh it's very individual for every Pilots how\h\h

603
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:58,800
they how they approach these uh these things and\h
um I think one of the other uh reasons why some\h\h

604
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:04,020
people are have a certain blockage because\h
there are still a huge stigma involved in in\h\h

605
00:55:04,020 --> 00:55:09,840
acknowledging that you might see something\h
that might not be readily explainable and\h\h

606
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:16,560
um I noticed this actually I came forward with\h
my first sightings in an interview with Vinnie\h\h

607
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:22,380
Adams from a disclosure team I think it was\h
in November uh it was a uh the first time I\h\h

608
00:55:22,380 --> 00:55:28,320
actually spoke publicly about some of the stuff I\h
couldn't see um and since then I've been flying a\h\h

609
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:33,240
lot of flights and I never really touched these\h
topics with my colleagues and at one point I was\h\h

610
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:37,620
flying already for two or three days with the\h
same colleague and only after two three days he\h\h

611
00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:42,960
he started the talking about the subject himself\h
uh once he felt it was safe and actually he told\h\h

612
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:48,900
me some of the things that he's seen during his uh\h
10 or 15 years of flying and he was very hesitant\h\h

613
00:55:48,900 --> 00:55:55,980
he was like almost almost uh afraid to to touch\h
this subject but I realized that we had a nice\h\h

614
00:55:55,980 --> 00:56:02,640
open conversation about it but I realized for many\h
Pilots they're still huge um uh um how do you say\h\h

615
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:07,320
this like it was very difficult to talk about the\h
subject and with the fear of ridicule and I think\h\h

616
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:12,480
this is playing a major part for many products\h
as well why do you think that is that there's\h\h

617
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:19,920
that that fear is there you know have you seen\h
like yourself any type of backlash to communicate\h\h

618
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:24,840
on that topic or is it just kind of the social\h
pressure that you have from the immediate reaction\h\h

619
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:31,740
um or is it more you know are are there actual\h
you know career implication or things of that\h\h

620
00:56:31,740 --> 00:56:37,320
nature people are concerned about it's a that's a\h
very interesting uh a question and there are many\h\h

621
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:43,200
takes on this uh on this topic I think first of\h
all um it's important to say that I was absolutely\h\h

622
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,480
not interested in the whole UAP or a UFO topic to\h
begin with I don't even like the word UFO because\h\h

623
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:55,200
of the stigma attached to it um I never I never\h
took this to the whole subject series honestly\h\h

624
00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:00,180
because since uh since I was young until uh\h
basically I saw your interview and that of kumala\h\h

625
00:57:00,180 --> 00:57:07,080
David Traver with Joe Rogan and Lex Friedman um\h
the whole UFO topic was mostly dominated by uh by\h\h

626
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:12,360
uh crickets but it's uh mildly and I just couldn't\h
take the subject seriously even though I've seen\h\h

627
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:17,520
a lot of things that I couldn't explain it's only\h
after a after I basically saw your interview and\h\h

628
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:23,940
and that have come out of David Shriver I realized\h
that um military Pilots are seeing things that\h\h

629
00:57:23,940 --> 00:57:27,960
they cannot explain and that was always my default\h
answer like if I couldn't explain it it must have\h\h

630
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:32,400
been something military and then I saw you coming\h
forward with your experiences and I realized that\h\h

631
00:57:33,420 --> 00:57:39,240
um some of the things are really a genuine\h
they're known still so I slowly started opening up\h\h

632
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:45,120
um towards myself even about the topic because I\h
realized that some of the stuff I've seen might be\h\h

633
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,760
um uh might be something more than just a\h
shooting star or or something something military\h\h

634
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:56,340
Etc so for me it has been uh well let's\h
say I saw your interview the first time\h\h

635
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:03,600
2020 and only slowly in the end of 2020 has\h
started to to to read up a bit more on the\h\h

636
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:10,080
topic and um yeah it's been a well yeah it's yeah\h
it's been let's say one year one and a half years\h\h

637
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:15,000
that I've started to take this this subject here\h
is myself and many of my colleagues never even\h\h

638
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,560
looked into it they don't even know about the dod\h
coming forward I says sorry the New York Times\h\h

639
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:25,320
going forward with the article in 2017 which was\h
a major breakthrough so many Pilots are simply not\h\h

640
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:31,200
aware of of how this topic is being approached\h
nowadays um it was interesting uh after I came\h\h

641
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:37,620
forward with these sightings of the red lights in\h
2014 as I said my first go-to explanation was was\h\h

642
00:58:37,620 --> 00:58:43,560
we were looking at a live volcanic eruption with\h
my Islands being grown there as we speak and I\h\h

643
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,540
remember we came uh we we arrived in Anchorage\h
and I put it online and we went out for dinner\h\h

644
00:58:48,540 --> 00:58:52,740
and beer and all of a sudden I get a text message\h
from my brother saying hi you're on the news and\h\h

645
00:58:52,740 --> 00:58:56,880
apparently a news channel picked up my uh my\h
posts on Facebook which has gone completely\h\h

646
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:04,980
viral and it it had the takeoff uh let's say it\h
had a title of a pilot spots UFOs over the Pacific\h\h

647
00:59:05,580 --> 00:59:09,180
and the first thought that came through my\h
mind was oh now I'm going to be the laughing\h\h

648
00:59:09,180 --> 00:59:14,400
stock of the company you know even though I'm a\h
professional pilot and um all my colleagues know\h\h

649
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,440
me as a as a downtour professional pilot\h
but I was really afraid of being laughed\h\h

650
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:25,680
at uh from that moment on and that proved to be\h
completely the opposite and many of my colleagues\h\h

651
00:59:26,460 --> 00:59:33,420
they took it actually very serious and it was an\h
eye-opener for me to see that many of my uh both\h\h

652
00:59:33,420 --> 00:59:38,400
ex-military and purely commercial products were\h
so open to the topic and they really wanted to\h\h

653
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:43,860
explore together with me what we've seen and there\h
was a really supportive and there was not one\h\h

654
00:59:43,860 --> 00:59:48,540
single negative comments from my own colleagues\h
maybe some some people Anonymous people on the\h\h

655
00:59:48,540 --> 00:59:53,520
internet that were mocking me honestly I don't\h
give a [\h__\h] but my own colleagues they took it\h\h

656
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,980
very serious and even more interestingly um it was\h
let's say these red lights they were a Hot Topic\h\h

657
00:59:58,980 --> 01:00:04,140
in the news for for about a year especially in\h
aviation community and many of my colleagues who\h\h

658
01:00:04,140 --> 01:00:09,480
never even spoke about any sort of subject like\h
that at all they came forward to me in private\h\h

659
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:14,580
settings like having dinner at the bar or flying\h
over the Pacific with their own sightings and some\h\h

660
01:00:14,580 --> 01:00:20,220
of them were really really mind-blowing and it\h
was only after they realized I was open to to\h\h

661
01:00:20,220 --> 01:00:26,760
basically finding out the truth finding out what\h
what we saw that they felt okay enough with me to\h\h

662
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,960
talk about the subject that was really interesting\h
there was also a huge compliment because it means\h\h

663
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:36,240
that many colleagues they never even spoke about\h
whatever they saw until they felt safe with with\h\h

664
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:41,640
me because I approached the topic so down to earth\h
and objectively how widespread do you think that\h\h

665
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:47,520
that feeling is that people were interested in\h
engaging in it if they're it was safe to do so\h\h

666
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:53,340
um in my personal experience and as I said\h
I've been flying now for 20 years and and\h\h

667
01:00:53,340 --> 01:00:58,560
I've seen many hundreds of colleagues um some\h
of my colleagues many of my colleagues have\h\h

668
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:04,920
seen extraordinary things from this guy and maybe\h
even The more I've never seen anything else but\h\h

669
01:01:05,580 --> 01:01:09,600
um let's say even if there's ten percent of\h
the pilots commercial pilots that have seen\h\h

670
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:14,400
some really interesting things it would be uh\h
very interesting to see that group of Pilots\h\h

671
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:19,740
opening up about their experiences and I think\h
if we get rid of the stigma if we have to if\h\h

672
01:01:19,740 --> 01:01:26,280
we get rid of the uh the fear of ridicule and\h
if we just approach the whole topic of UAP the\h\h

673
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:32,580
very objectively and and try to find an answer\h
and especially with safe flight safety in mind\h\h

674
01:01:32,580 --> 01:01:39,060
uh it should be just uh another topic to we that\h
we have to talk about um sometimes I compare it\h\h

675
01:01:39,060 --> 01:01:45,720
with the uh with the huge flow of incidents with\h
the Green Lasers being pointed at airplanes this\h\h

676
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:52,560
was especially coming up in 2006 seven I think and\h
all of a sudden uh many idiots started pointing a\h\h

677
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:57,480
green laser pointers towards the airplane for\h
a long time many Pilots said just ignored it\h\h

678
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,440
saying well you know if we don't mention it over\h
the radio these guys will get bored but a couple\h\h

679
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,120
of Pilots including myself actually I went to the\h
police and I I filed a report even though I mean\h\h

680
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,680
the chance that these guys are being caught this\h
is very small but at least at least I found the\h\h

681
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:15,480
reports and if they finally catch one of these\h
guys to have at least history of stuff going on\h\h

682
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:22,920
and I think uh I think it was the FAA that finally\h
issued a uh it's like a course or an introduction\h\h

683
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:28,080
course or what to do if you see green laser and\h
nowadays Within uh well let's say within four\h\h

684
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:33,300
years it was implemented by many airlines over\h
the world that all the pilots get a trading so\h\h

685
01:02:33,300 --> 01:02:38,100
what to do how to recognize the green age what to\h
do if you see it how to take care of your of your\h\h

686
01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:44,100
eyes if you have any any residual laser images\h
uh even if you if your eyes get damaged by lasers\h\h

687
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:51,360
Etc and it shows that this topic of these laser\h
pointers was suddenly being taken serious and um I\h\h

688
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:57,180
think this is the same approach that we need to to\h
uh to implement with reporting uip and especially\h\h

689
01:02:57,180 --> 01:03:02,940
since there might be I'm not saying there is but\h
it might be an aviation safety issue let's say\h\h

690
01:03:02,940 --> 01:03:08,400
if we if we if we would discover or find out a\h
new weather phenomena that could or could not\h\h

691
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:13,380
have influence on our airplane I mean this is all\h
stuff that we had that we have to be aware of as\h\h

692
01:03:13,380 --> 01:03:19,680
aviators so in the end if we get rid of the stigma\h
if we if we manage to to to talk about it openly\h\h

693
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,020
and if Pilots just dare to report whatever they\h
saw even if even if it's not flight safety related\h\h

694
01:03:25,020 --> 01:03:32,400
I think uh will be majorly forward so so far we've\h
talked about the red light that will you know was\h\h

695
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:39,900
initially an unidentified potentially new volcanic\h
activity um you end up doing some homework\h\h

696
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:44,520
on that and after a period of time where we'll\h
determines for likely fishing boats of some nature\h\h

697
01:03:45,660 --> 01:03:52,500
um we've just described a couple um situations\h
you've been here we've been had more unidentified\h\h

698
01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:58,140
uh events liked essentially that have been coming\h
down faster than what we'd expect gravity to be\h\h

699
01:03:58,140 --> 01:04:03,000
pulling it down at from high altitudes all\h
the way down to Ocean in at least one case\h\h

700
01:04:04,020 --> 01:04:07,080
um do you have any others that are\h
you know in your book anomalous still\h\h

701
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:14,460
uh yeah there are two more events that are\h
still anomalous that I've seen or witnessed\h\h

702
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,960
um one of them actually both of them are\h
completely different than the other two cases\h\h

703
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:25,080
of falling lights also very different from each\h
other uh there was back in 2005 as well if I'm\h\h

704
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:32,400
not mistaken we were flying with the F50 for an\h
airline called Olympic Airlines chartered out of\h\h

705
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,720
Athens we were flying to all these islands so it\h
was really cool flying work and we were flying uh\h\h

706
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:42,000
four or five or six flights a day and at one point\h
it was already evening or maybe even the late\h\h

707
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,080
evening and we just landed on the small Islands\h
I'm pretty sure it must have been Mykonos or one\h\h

708
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:50,520
of those Islands anyway there are thousands of\h
them so it's all pretty much in the same area and\h\h

709
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:55,800
it was a very small run Lane in the end so we had\h
to make a 180 turn uh 180 degrees and backtrack\h\h

710
01:04:55,800 --> 01:05:01,740
the runway to go back to the to the platform and\h
the moment we landed we made a 180 turn and the\h\h

711
01:05:01,740 --> 01:05:07,020
cockpits was facing towards the north while we\h
were turning and it was a clear sky you could see\h\h

712
01:05:07,020 --> 01:05:13,800
all the stars and it was a very very clear lights\h
no clouds and we witnessed something in the sky\h\h

713
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:21,660
that I can only describe as a very bright light it\h
was um maybe even if it was comparable to a very\h\h

714
01:05:21,660 --> 01:05:27,660
bright Planet as you sometimes see that Mars right\h
what a planet like Mars or Venus and it was a very\h\h

715
01:05:27,660 --> 01:05:32,820
bright spot of light it appeared and disappeared\h
had reappeared again disappeared it happened four\h\h

716
01:05:32,820 --> 01:05:38,280
or five times and it reappeared again just a\h
bit further let's say the width of a full moon\h\h

717
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:44,340
maybe two or three full moons and it shut off at\h
incredible speed there was not even acceleration\h\h

718
01:05:44,340 --> 01:05:52,020
so the lighter beards disappeared for four times\h
just a small distance apart and it reappeared and\h\h

719
01:05:52,020 --> 01:05:59,760
it shut off like nothing I've ever seen before\h
or since and it's very difficult to judge the\h\h

720
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:05,220
altitude or distance but I could at least judge\h
it was very far away as Pilots were pretty used\h\h

721
01:06:05,220 --> 01:06:10,920
as you're probably used to as well to judge\h
distances and then speeds of objects anything\h\h

722
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,540
relatively close by you can see it with the\h
Parallax of the of the window frame but whatever\h\h

723
01:06:15,540 --> 01:06:22,020
this was it must have been let's say roughly at\h
least 20 000 feet maybe even low earth orbits\h\h

724
01:06:22,740 --> 01:06:27,720
um but let's say it's just very high and\h
hypothetically if it was at thirty thousand\h\h

725
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:34,680
feet which I'm not sure but I I it's just a\h
guesstimate if it was at 30 000 feet uh the speeds\h\h

726
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:42,540
which uh which it shut off must have been around\h
Mach 30 or 40. it was just incredible huh and\h\h

727
01:06:42,540 --> 01:06:48,420
um as I can this is just an estimate if it was a\h
30 000 feet but whatever it was it was very high\h\h

728
01:06:48,420 --> 01:06:52,920
and it was just it was gone and the proof sound\h
is just something I made because we didn't hear\h\h

729
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:59,160
anything but it was just instantly gone uh my\h
captain he saw it as well and he remarked this\h\h

730
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:08,700
is really strange which direction to take off into\h
uh Jew East and it was a pure level it was just uh\h\h

731
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:13,800
uh well level yeah you mean like we don't like\h
climbing or like shooting up or down in a sense\h\h

732
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:19,560
it was just proceeding you know horizontally yeah\h
exactly yeah but it's very difficult to judge uh\h\h

733
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:26,220
that's the pitch your attitude but um I I estimate\h
that it was just flying let's say level moving\h\h

734
01:07:26,220 --> 01:07:31,140
moving level and it shut off just in One Direction\h
without any sort of Direction same direction yeah\h\h

735
01:07:31,140 --> 01:07:36,900
and the interesting thing is uh we did the flight\h
preparation of course as we always do and in the\h\h

736
01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:43,020
no terms it was clearly stated that that night a\h
huge part of the Mediterranean airspace was closed\h\h

737
01:07:43,020 --> 01:07:49,620
because uh the U.S carrier group with the users\h
Theodore Roosevelt was passing by towards the\h\h

738
01:07:49,620 --> 01:07:56,880
Persian Gulf so it must have been 2005 and um we\h
have no clue where the the carrier group exactly\h\h

739
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:02,580
was because it's it's classified normally but\h
it was the same night that the uh the the ships\h\h

740
01:08:02,580 --> 01:08:07,080
were passing by and our first reaction was again\h
well it must be something military it's probably\h\h

741
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:12,600
connected to to the carrier group and I've\h
never seen anything since or anything like it\h\h

742
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:19,620
and especially the stuttering motion which was\h
really strange and then the instant speed I'm\h\h

743
01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:25,800
not even talking about acceleration just instant\h
speed are something I cannot explain with any any\h\h

744
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:33,420
uh logic or or or common sense and I'm still\h
I'm still wondering what it was I recently\h\h

745
01:08:33,420 --> 01:08:39,840
uh read some of the incident reports that have\h
been reported by ex security military personnel\h\h

746
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:45,720
working at nuclear facilities and funny enough\h
exactly the same event has been described by a\h\h

747
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:51,000
couple of people who who came forward with their\h
experiences in the 70s and I think 80s and you\h\h

748
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:56,220
know like with the flashing lights and the zipping\h
off is that how it's similar yeah exactly exactly\h\h

749
01:08:56,220 --> 01:09:00,900
similar four times appearing are reappearing\h
in a stuttering motion and then shooting off\h\h

750
01:09:00,900 --> 01:09:06,600
at incredible Speed without acceleration and\h
uh it was like a revelation when I saw this in\h\h

751
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:12,180
these published reports that I realized that it\h
was not my imagination I didn't I didn't uh uh\h\h

752
01:09:12,180 --> 01:09:17,640
imagine it afterwards it was something that has\h
been reported more often very rarely but it has\h\h

753
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:23,700
been reported more often and I'm still looking\h
for an explanation because there's nothing that\h\h

754
01:09:23,700 --> 01:09:28,980
that resembles anything like it that I can come up\h
with no weather phenomena if it's like a lightning\h\h

755
01:09:28,980 --> 01:09:35,520
strike I've seen millions of lightning strikes\h
I've seen a really strange lightning or lights uh\h\h

756
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:41,160
phenomena in thunderstorms which are completely\h
explainable and rather mundane but this was\h\h

757
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:46,020
something completely off it said I've never seen\h
anything like it I understand you can't explain\h\h

758
01:09:46,020 --> 01:09:51,000
it but I mean what do you make of that I mean how\h
do you fit that into your your your thinking here\h\h

759
01:09:51,900 --> 01:09:56,160
you know the the box is somewhat small that we\h
could put around something like that there's\h\h

760
01:09:56,160 --> 01:10:01,860
not a lot of you know things that I can think\h
of just as it sounds like you can't to better\h\h

761
01:10:01,860 --> 01:10:07,020
describe or to you know put that in the context\h
with something related to our own technology\h\h

762
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:14,100
um where does that leave you on this one well\h
for a long time uh almost uh 15 years I didn't\h\h

763
01:10:14,100 --> 01:10:18,900
even think about it at all it's always been in\h
the back of my mind it's always hoping that I\h\h

764
01:10:18,900 --> 01:10:24,780
see something similar again that I can use to\h
maybe deduct some logic behind it I was hoping\h\h

765
01:10:24,780 --> 01:10:30,000
that I could actually capture it on camera one of\h
these days and and and try to link it with maybe\h\h

766
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:36,540
uh rocket debris burning up or something happening\h
in the sky but I haven't seen anything since and\h\h

767
01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:41,940
um to be honest I never really thought about it\h
just in the back of my mind but I never gave it\h\h

768
01:10:41,940 --> 01:10:47,460
any more attention until let's say end of 2020 I\h
started to realize that that some of these things\h\h

769
01:10:48,420 --> 01:10:53,340
um might be genuine announced not just for me but\h
for the aviation aspect in general or maybe for\h\h

770
01:10:53,340 --> 01:10:58,140
for signs in general so this was really something\h
that that only came back to the surface after\h\h

771
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:05,580
um yeah after almost 15 years of of not even\h
thinking about it I find that to be the case\h\h

772
01:11:05,580 --> 01:11:10,620
with with this a lot of times where people have an\h
experience and then they just put it aside for a\h\h

773
01:11:10,620 --> 01:11:15,900
period of time and then at some point for whatever\h
reason it comes back up in their life and they\h\h

774
01:11:15,900 --> 01:11:22,140
kind of re-engage the topic and kind of do what\h
you just did process it you know and communicate\h\h

775
01:11:22,140 --> 01:11:28,560
about communicate about it and speak to it but\h
before that you know people will pretend like it\h\h

776
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:33,780
doesn't happen in some sense and it sounds like\h
you've spoken to some colleagues that you know\h\h

777
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:39,780
that treat it that way what do you think brings\h
people around get to that point where they can\h\h

778
01:11:39,780 --> 01:11:44,100
look at this topic what what do you maybe that's\h
not what's stopping them but how do you move them\h\h

779
01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:50,040
across that barrier um I think uh while the\h
barrier uh for some people that's huge barrier\h\h

780
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:56,280
because they they might be afraid of something\h
a known another point is just bringing it\h\h

781
01:11:57,060 --> 01:12:02,220
um to the level that we can't just talk about it\h
without fear or ridicule and as I said before you\h\h

782
01:12:02,220 --> 01:12:06,960
know I've been flying with a lot of colleagues\h
that have come forward to to me with really\h\h

783
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:12,660
extraordinary experiences that only dare to come\h
forward after they realized I wouldn't I wouldn't\h\h

784
01:12:12,660 --> 01:12:19,320
laugh on their face and I think the only way\h
on the on the global scale that we can make the\h\h

785
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:28,620
topic less Fringe and and more approachable it's\h
just by talking about it and um you just asked\h\h

786
01:12:28,620 --> 01:12:34,680
me before about the official ridicule let's say\h
from an airline or from from uh maybe the industry\h\h

787
01:12:35,580 --> 01:12:41,160
um I'm I I have a European license I'm flying for\h
ayasa airline European Airline so the system is\h\h

788
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:45,420
a bit different compared to the US Airlines and\h
the FAA regulating everything here in the states\h\h

789
01:12:46,620 --> 01:12:52,500
I think in Europe there is no such thing as being\h
afraid of losing your license just like that I'm\h\h

790
01:12:52,500 --> 01:13:00,240
not afraid of um of of answering for whatever\h
I've seen and as long as I am very open and\h\h

791
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:05,040
very objective about what I've seen I don't see\h
any reason to to be afraid of the stigma in the\h\h

792
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:10,740
end I only have one goal in mind and that's\h
the safety of my flights and flight safety\h\h

793
01:13:10,740 --> 01:13:15,780
in general and since Aviation is literally all\h
about safety I think this is one of the topics\h\h

794
01:13:15,780 --> 01:13:20,940
that we we should be able to discuss and as\h
I said before even if we found out that it's\h\h

795
01:13:20,940 --> 01:13:26,880
just a strange kind of bird or maybe even even a\h
glowy insects that has a strange characteristics\h\h

796
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:31,320
or maybe maybe some kind of a new weather\h
phenomena or for the better the more we we\h\h

797
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:37,200
understand whatever is going on the more we can\h
implement it in in in flight and flight safety so\h\h

798
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:42,600
maybe aviation in general yeah I agree with you\h
I mean at the end of the day as the captain of\h\h

799
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:47,820
the aircraft you sign for the safety of it and\h
regardless of the FAA a help that you may have\h\h

800
01:13:47,820 --> 01:13:53,700
or or lack of help or the tools that you have\h
access to or your your co-pilot their skill set\h\h

801
01:13:54,660 --> 01:13:59,220
um you know you have to make decisions to ensure\h
the safety of that flight regardless of what\h\h

802
01:13:59,220 --> 01:14:02,700
information you may or may not be receiving\h
because ultimately you're responsible for the\h\h

803
01:14:02,700 --> 01:14:07,800
safety of it exactly yeah and I have something\h
that you know could be a potential safety issue\h\h

804
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:14,580
but is not it's not something that people are\h
able to openly talk about you know that's kind\h\h

805
01:14:14,580 --> 01:14:20,220
of a a loss of that contract that the the captain\h
of that aircraft has if they're not able to look\h\h

806
01:14:20,220 --> 01:14:25,680
at that one issue as as a potential safety hazard\h
just like they would anything else definitely I\h\h

807
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:31,140
completely agree with you and the more we we\h
manage to discuss those kind of topics uh the\h\h

808
01:14:31,140 --> 01:14:35,340
more it improves flight safety in the end and as I\h
said you know even if we found out that it's just\h\h

809
01:14:35,340 --> 01:14:40,320
something completely irrelevant I mean that it's\h
just a light reflection or or something something\h\h

810
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:45,180
very mundane awful the better because then we know\h
that if we see those kind of things we can ignore\h\h

811
01:14:45,180 --> 01:14:50,220
them then again maybe it's something else and I\h
think the only way to find out is just be open\h\h

812
01:14:50,220 --> 01:15:00,120
about its gather data and and and open up about\h
the topic so what's the last one you have one more\h\h

813
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:06,420
right that's that's right uh well the last one\h
it's already uh 13 years ago it was in January\h\h

814
01:15:06,420 --> 01:15:13,200
2010 I was flying with the 737 from Amsterdam\h
to Malaga which is in the southern part of Spain\h\h

815
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:20,640
um it was um well let's say about six or seven in\h
the evening so the sun had already set below the\h\h

816
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:25,560
Horizon there was still this orange yellow glow\h
in the sky and we were flying very high we were\h\h

817
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:30,000
flying at 41 000 for your full-time a night yeah\h
it's nice and quiet and especially because we were\h\h

818
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:35,760
the only airplane around we got a direct routing\h
from let's say the piranistan we started entering\h\h

819
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:41,340
Spanish airspace all the way to Malaga direct so\h
that saves a few minutes and it was nice and quiet\h\h

820
01:15:41,340 --> 01:15:47,640
and we had a cup of coffee and all of a sudden\h
I hear my captain asking he was a very senior\h\h

821
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:52,860
Captain uh ex-military as well and he says Hey\h
do you see that as well and I was looking forward\h\h

822
01:15:52,860 --> 01:15:57,120
through my windscreen which was full with every\h
good thing you want to hear in the cockpit no it\h\h

823
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:01,920
was actually in a very open way like uh do you see\h
that as well any clue what it could what it could\h\h

824
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:07,800
be and I was looking through the windscreen I was\h
completely splattered with bugs and and dirt and\h\h

825
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:12,180
the moment you move your head a little bit left\h
and right sideways like that you can see the bugs\h\h

826
01:16:12,180 --> 01:16:16,500
moving and anything that's outside of the window\h
like other airplanes in traffic it stays still\h\h

827
01:16:16,500 --> 01:16:24,060
and it all of a sudden I I saw something um solid\h
and it was very far away but it was like a small\h\h

828
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:31,680
um spec it was like a dark dark shape very far\h
away and once once I saw it I started to think\h\h

829
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:36,300
about what it could have been am I my captain as\h
well we were both looking at it and really trying\h\h

830
01:16:36,300 --> 01:16:42,300
to to to think logically about what it could\h
be first of all we were flying very high 41 000\h\h

831
01:16:42,300 --> 01:16:48,000
feet there's not much Airline traffic commercial\h
traffic that's flying uh the same altitude or even\h\h

832
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:52,560
higher well in this case as you can see in the\h
pictures as well the object or whatever it was\h\h

833
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:58,500
it was relatively high above the Horizon so that\h
means it must have been what at least I think 45\h\h

834
01:16:58,500 --> 01:17:04,980
000 feet maybe even higher which is um which\h
is rare to see especially if it's if it's a\h\h

835
01:17:04,980 --> 01:17:10,260
commercial traffic as I said then again there\h
was no other traffic ahead of us we were not\h\h

836
01:17:10,260 --> 01:17:16,740
on an airway we've got a direct routing and it\h
was exactly Straight Ahead compared to the uh to\h\h

837
01:17:16,740 --> 01:17:21,540
the track of the airplane and we were looking\h
at it for maybe two or three minutes and it\h\h

838
01:17:21,540 --> 01:17:27,780
didn't change uh relative bearing it didn't change\h
altitude it didn't change shape and it didn't grow\h\h

839
01:17:27,780 --> 01:17:34,020
larger or smaller so that means whatever it is\h
especially when the airplane is flying uh uh close\h\h

840
01:17:34,020 --> 01:17:40,200
to the speed of sound Mach 0.8 or whatever it\h
was that means that either the object is keeping\h\h

841
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:46,020
the same distance ahead of us if it's not changing\h
shape or size or distance and it was keeping track\h\h

842
01:17:46,020 --> 01:17:51,480
with track of us or it must have been extremely\h
far away that our relative movement was not making\h\h

843
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:57,600
any change the shape was very strange as well\h
it was like a bit of a cigar shade it was like\h\h

844
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:04,440
a rectangular shape and it didn't fit anything\h
that I've seen before it happens sometimes when\h\h

845
01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:11,520
you're flying uh exactly in the Wake let's say the\h
Wake control of another airplane that you see the\h\h

846
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:17,760
contrail from behind and then you see these these\h
rounded edges these these these curly uh shapes\h\h

847
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:23,400
but most of the time since the air is so unstable\h
this disappears after one or two minutes or the\h\h

848
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:28,740
airplane is just taking a different track and it\h
just vanishes but this whatever we saw was there\h\h

849
01:18:28,740 --> 01:18:33,060
it was backlit so and you basically saw the\h
shadow of it so it was within our atmosphere\h\h

850
01:18:33,060 --> 01:18:38,820
and it was staying exactly the same shape and\h
size and distance for over an hour all the way\h\h

851
01:18:38,820 --> 01:18:45,120
from the moment we entered Spanish airspace to uh\h
descend into malagawa we descended into the clouds\h\h

852
01:18:45,900 --> 01:18:50,580
so after observing for maybe two or three minutes\h
we basically ruled out that was another airplane\h\h

853
01:18:50,580 --> 01:18:55,440
because the contrail was just well let's put it\h
differently it couldn't have been a contra because\h\h

854
01:18:55,440 --> 01:19:01,620
it was so stable and the shape was so strange a\h
weather balloon uh well normally weather balloons\h\h

855
01:19:01,620 --> 01:19:08,220
are uh they're elongated vertically um and\h
they're pretty bright because the sun is often\h\h

856
01:19:08,220 --> 01:19:12,420
reflecting off them well in this case well of\h
course the sun was already gone but it was just\h\h

857
01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:21,300
so stable it had a elongated shape horizontally\h
and it it was it was as I said we we sold for\h\h

858
01:19:21,300 --> 01:19:26,340
over an hour and it must have been huge and very\h
far away so we basically ruled that one out and\h\h

859
01:19:26,340 --> 01:19:31,740
after 10 minutes I just decided uh my captain he\h
just Shrugged his shoulders and I decided to ask\h\h

860
01:19:31,740 --> 01:19:35,700
the air traffic controller we were talking with if\h
there was any traffic ahead of us because we could\h\h

861
01:19:35,700 --> 01:19:42,480
basically rule out if there was if we could rule\h
out anything uh strange so the Madrid air traffic\h\h

862
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:48,180
controller he uh he was really surprised he said\h
oh you guys are the only traffic uh basically in\h\h

863
01:19:48,180 --> 01:19:53,340
Spain at this moment especially the altitudes\h
what do you see so we're looking at this this\h\h

864
01:19:53,340 --> 01:19:57,180
object whatever it is and we're wondering if we're\h
looking into the control of another airplane or\h\h

865
01:19:57,180 --> 01:20:01,500
if it's maybe a weather balloon he said no\h
there's no known traffic nothing at all and\h\h

866
01:20:01,500 --> 01:20:06,420
uh after maybe one minute he came back to us\h
and he said well military air traffic control\h\h

867
01:20:07,260 --> 01:20:12,960
um wants to hear about your sighting ASAP so\h
please contact them on separate frequency and\h\h

868
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:17,460
I contacted them on the second feature of radio\h
we have and the military air traffic controller\h\h

869
01:20:17,460 --> 01:20:22,140
I was expecting him to make fun of us but it\h
was quite the opposite he sounded not really\h\h

870
01:20:22,140 --> 01:20:27,600
distressed but he wanted to know everything that\h
we saw and he testified our testified he basically\h\h

871
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:34,920
told us there is no known traffic on radar primary\h
secondary radar in in uh in Spain and there was no\h\h

872
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:39,960
military activity there was no military traffic\h
there was no weather balloons because basically\h\h

873
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:44,160
they I guess they can track all the weather\h
balloons and he wanted to know if we saw any\h\h

874
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:51,000
change or or if anything was happening is unusual\h
yeah very very well is it unusual for them to want\h\h

875
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,540
to reach out to talk to you about something like\h
that yeah it's the first and only time I've I've\h\h

876
01:20:54,540 --> 01:20:59,100
experienced that and it was not just the fact that\h
he immediately wanted to know everything about it\h\h

877
01:20:59,100 --> 01:21:03,600
but also he was so candid and forward about the\h
fact there was no traffic nothing going on there\h\h

878
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:09,900
and I would expect you know if they don't take a\h
serious they just discard it or you know if he if\h\h

879
01:21:09,900 --> 01:21:14,220
he would have uh wanted to calm us down he would\h
have said yeah there's some military activity just\h\h

880
01:21:14,220 --> 01:21:19,440
ignore it which would of ease our minds as well\h
but in this case it was it always struck me that\h\h

881
01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:26,160
struck me that military Air Traffic Control was\h
so um uh actively evolved in what we saw which\h\h

882
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:31,020
was very interesting and as I said we saw the\h
object for over an hour until we descended into\h\h

883
01:21:31,020 --> 01:21:35,640
Malaga which is all the way to the southern part\h
of the Spanish Peninsula until we descended into\h\h

884
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:41,880
the clouds and the object was just still there\h
same size same distance same shape and I just\h\h

885
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:47,280
did not understand the state at its altitude yeah\h
as you could tell yeah and I took two pictures\h\h

886
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:53,700
basically within a time frame of 10 seconds and\h
these images are now being analyzed by epaco\h\h

887
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:59,460
which is run by French scientists working\h
for gaipan probably butchering the French\h\h

888
01:21:59,460 --> 01:22:04,680
pronunciation but these guys they take these\h
kind of citing series and very objectively they\h\h

889
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:10,260
analyze photographic material or video material\h
just to find out what it was and this guy is now\h\h

890
01:22:10,260 --> 01:22:15,960
analyzing uh the image already for uh for a few\h
weeks and I'm really really looking forward to\h\h

891
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:20,760
his results because he basically already saw that\h
the file I gave him the raw file from the camera\h\h

892
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:25,800
it's genuine it's not manipulated it's just a\h
real picture and now they're trying to find out\h\h

893
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:31,800
what it could have been trying to to to maybe\h
measure distance and and relative size and I'm\h\h

894
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:36,780
looking forward to it because this was uh the\h
first and only time I've been able to actually\h\h

895
01:22:36,780 --> 01:22:42,060
document it with my camera what I saw what I've\h
seen and it was completely unlike anything else\h\h

896
01:22:42,060 --> 01:22:47,640
like the moving lights or the falling lights\h
it was a physical thing object whatever it was\h\h

897
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:51,900
and uh yeah I'm just looking forward to to the\h
results and hearing what it could have been is\h\h

898
01:22:51,900 --> 01:22:56,760
that image publicly available or are you waiting\h
to get the results it's simple yeah it's publicly\h\h

899
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:02,700
available I'll send it to you maybe you can uh\h
show the viewers in the uh in the video as well\h\h

900
01:23:02,700 --> 01:23:07,800
and it's also available on my website I have\h
a separate page with uh all kinds of sightings\h\h

901
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:13,980
both The Unexplained like this unexplained case\h
but also a whole list of other explained cases so\h\h

902
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:18,780
um as I said before you know I'd always try to\h
analyze what I see what I've seen I tried to\h\h

903
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:24,600
um yeah find find an explanation for all the\h
stuff and fortunately a lot of stuff has been\h\h

904
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:29,700
uh has been explained so far but this is still\h
a genuinely I'm looking forward to the results\h\h

905
01:23:29,700 --> 01:23:34,860
of the uh the analysis very cool are there\h
are there some in that known category now\h\h

906
01:23:34,860 --> 01:23:40,140
that either surprise you or are interesting even\h
though they're not you know anomalous anymore uh\h\h

907
01:23:40,140 --> 01:23:46,320
yeah actually one other image is also now being\h
analyzed by by the same guys from epaco um it's\h\h

908
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:53,100
a picture I took I think it must have been 2020\h
during day over the Atlantic Ocean and I use a\h\h

909
01:23:53,100 --> 01:23:57,600
wide angle lens to take pictures of the atmosphere\h
in the sky and there was almost a full moon in\h\h

910
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:01,080
the sky as we always I like the moon and I like\h
take pictures of the Moon in comparison with The\h\h

911
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:07,680
Horizon it gives some depth anyway I was browsing\h
through my images uh maybe even six months ago and\h\h

912
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:12,840
on one of those images I found a light streak next\h
to the moon and it's uh it was it's a very small\h\h

913
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:18,540
light streak in a couple of different colors and\h
I suspect it to be a cosmic ray which is one of\h\h

914
01:24:18,540 --> 01:24:24,780
these uh high energy particles flying through\h
the atmosphere and probably the camera sensor\h\h

915
01:24:24,780 --> 01:24:29,880
captured one of these cosmic rays just at the\h
moment there was an exposure and it shows as a\h\h

916
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:35,460
as a as a light streak on the on the on the image\h
and I talked with one of these guys from epaco\h\h

917
01:24:35,460 --> 01:24:40,680
and they said well we still want to analyze this\h
picture because it might be like a benchmark for\h\h

918
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:45,540
digital photography where something very mundane\h
like a cosmic ray is being captured so it shows\h\h

919
01:24:45,540 --> 01:24:51,720
that this picture that I take are not even not so\h
much for analyzing a UAP or or mysterious things\h\h

920
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:57,540
but some of those pictures capture something very\h
mundane and very uh useful for future references\h\h

921
01:24:57,540 --> 01:25:02,100
because if another pilot suddenly comes up with\h
a picture they have a really uh good reference\h\h

922
01:25:02,100 --> 01:25:07,380
to what a cosmic ray looks like so it might\h
rule out a lot of uh nuisance uh reportings\h\h

923
01:25:07,380 --> 01:25:12,300
yeah that's a good point and another and maybe\h
if you don't mind there's another case where\h\h

924
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:19,560
um I was able to document something uh happening\h
basically in the sky we were flying with the 747\h\h

925
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:25,980
from Europe to South America we were flying\h
basically between Africa and South America\h\h

926
01:25:25,980 --> 01:25:31,320
crossing the Equator in the middle of the night\h
and fortunately I had my camera already set up to\h\h

927
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:37,320
take pictures of shooting stars and the Milky Way\h
and I was chatting with my colleague about space\h\h

928
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:41,940
travel and you name it just the topic naturally\h
grows in those directions if you see all the stars\h\h

929
01:25:41,940 --> 01:25:47,640
Etc and I'm sitting on the right hand seat I was\h
still co-pilots and I see we're being overtaken by\h\h

930
01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:51,900
something which is really strange because we were\h
just completely alone in the in that part of the\h\h

931
01:25:51,900 --> 01:25:56,760
ocean and at the same time I'm looking at it and\h
it's it's really weird because it's like a bundle\h\h

932
01:25:56,760 --> 01:26:02,100
of Lights overtaking us and the moment I look\h
at it I realize it's this must be very far away\h\h

933
01:26:02,100 --> 01:26:07,560
because it's uh you can see it on the Parallax\h
with uh with the other traffic normally if there's\h\h

934
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:12,660
another airplane close by you can actually see it\h
just uh as you could you can judge the distances\h\h

935
01:26:12,660 --> 01:26:18,540
in this case it was like a fireball with all kind\h
of fireballs falling off just overtaking us and\h\h

936
01:26:18,540 --> 01:26:23,100
immediately I realized this was uh something\h
burning up in the atmosphere it was not like\h\h

937
01:26:23,100 --> 01:26:28,620
a shooting star or meteor because they go very\h
fast this was almost going the same speed as\h\h

938
01:26:28,620 --> 01:26:33,420
all the satellites that we normally see like the\h
ISS and it must have been something burning up\h\h

939
01:26:33,420 --> 01:26:37,680
in the atmosphere this junk of some nature you\h
think yeah and later on we found out because I\h\h

940
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:42,480
published it again on social media and apparently\h
it was picked up by the right people and there was\h\h

941
01:26:42,480 --> 01:26:49,260
an astronomer I think he's also a Dutch guy and\h
that's an astronomer and he's keeping track of a\h\h

942
01:26:49,260 --> 01:26:55,320
little space debris and he came across my sighting\h
he says well it makes sense with all the data I\h\h

943
01:26:55,320 --> 01:27:00,060
have here it could be this Chinese booster from\h
whatever rocket launched a couple of years before\h\h

944
01:27:00,060 --> 01:27:05,280
and he it was basically known that this kind of\h
Rocket debris was going to burn up somewhere in\h\h

945
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:14,580
the next 24 hours because they keep track of the\h
the um the slow declay the decay in uh uh how do\h\h

946
01:27:14,580 --> 01:27:19,200
you say this in orbit and in this case it's\h
coincided exactly with uh with the track of\h\h

947
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:24,240
this space debris and we found out that it was\h
a Chinese rocket debris that was really cool it\h\h

948
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:30,240
was just um in almost two minutes it just crossed\h
the Horizon in the far distance and it burned up\h\h

949
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:34,500
like that but I happen to be looking at it and I\h
happened to be taking pictures at that moment what\h\h

950
01:27:34,500 --> 01:27:39,360
are the odds oh yeah I'll take a little picture\h
so this is quite big that there's something\h\h

951
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:44,280
like that's showing up but it was yeah it was was\h
pretty cool really cool man capturing man-made you\h\h

952
01:27:44,280 --> 01:27:49,140
know objects coming back into space and burning\h
up such like a a unique item to catch on camera\h\h

953
01:27:49,140 --> 01:27:54,300
very cool and also just if you don't if you don't\h
mind me saying it'll get a lot of people asking me\h\h

954
01:27:54,300 --> 01:27:58,920
well are you sure you didn't see starlink because\h
that's one of the things that a lot of people\h\h

955
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:04,020
see nowadays well first of all yeah as Pilots\h
especially from the flying at nights from the\h\h

956
01:28:04,020 --> 01:28:08,040
cockpits we see starlink all the time especially\h
just after lunch you see this whole train of\h\h

957
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:13,080
Lights it's pretty cool to see uh but it's very\h
easily easy to identify as as being Starling\h\h

958
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:18,360
um people say that for example the shooting lines\h
that I've seen or the falling lights this happened\h\h

959
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:25,080
long before starting was even uh even thought of\h
or even launched so um yeah starlink is being seen\h\h

960
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:30,240
by a lot of Pilots uh the ISS is being seen\h
by a lot of Pilots rocket debris burning up\h\h

961
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:36,420
is being seen by a lot of Pilots but it is not\h
even close to to the uh The Unexplained cases\h\h

962
01:28:36,420 --> 01:28:42,300
I've just presented to you fascinating that's\h
very cool Christian I appreciate you coming all\h\h

963
01:28:42,300 --> 01:28:47,100
the way over here to have this conversation with\h
me I hope you continue to fly safe and I look\h\h